Greece and the euro

The UK can refinance its central bank all by itself, Italy can't and had to tap the ECB for funding - who in turn tapped into Germany's bundesbank's reserves via the "target 2" mechanism.

Also, growth projections are better for the UK than for Italy, and the debt-to-GDP ratio lower.

The UK isn't doing great, but Italy's certainly not doing any better.

UK can refinance its Central Bank because it can print money to buy its own debt, as you surely know. Italy can't do that, since it is hamstrung in this most virtuous of elect Clubs, the Eurozone, as otherwise it would soon join skid row as the UK.

You might be excused not knowing this being and American ;-)

Nah, he's a good kid. I'm being hard on him to toughen him up a little and make him think.

Viva! grab your compass and hurry. We're over here!

I know, I know;-)... .

You know, what you say is perfectly true - but it also means that this currency is simply to heavy for Italy.

How was carnival this year, btw? And do you fall into the Cologne, Duesseldorf or Aachen section of organized madness?

Yes, exactly. You and I could rule ourselves, but we are in the minority. The majority usually finds a way to mess things up. Begs the question, why does a just man choose to rule? Because he fears being ruled by a man less just then himself of course. Many atrocities committed during the Greek Civil War. Greek on Greek crime. This is the most likely scenario. Certainly falls under the category of be careful what you wish for...laughs

Me too Josh, certainly the only way to go, unless of course by some miracle Greece is allowed to borrow again in the open markets before another loan package is needed.

The argument about the Brits devaluing is a false analogy of course. This is exactly the reason why the Brits never really intended to join the common currency. They needed, and will continue to need to devalue.

Perhaps the master plan is to one day have: $1 = 1 Euro = 1 Pound, with a whole lot of profitable fluctuations thrown in for good measure...laughs

zorbas
The Brits did intend to join EMU in 1991 but soon found out that this would not allow them to devalue when the pressure was put on them by short sellers like Soros, who made a billion out of their misery betting against the pound. Tried it again last year with the Euro but got a bloody nose and had to sell his gold to pay off his investors. If GS and JPM should have to pay out on the CDS in case there is a "credit event" they too might have to sell their gold. At the moment though they are still buying gold. It is rocketing as we speak towards 1800$ whilst the stock markets are down. I am sure I don't have to tell you why ... laughs

Interesting, so they did , but they thought better of it. Good thing too, their productive days are long gone. Easier to play the markets, and bankrupt whole nations in the process, I would think.

I saw no reason to protest against George Papandreou and I see no reason to protest against Papademos. Both politicians have been doing the best they could under absolutely terrifying conditions.

As for the politicians (Nea Demokratia) of the past who got Greece into this shape: that is an issue for Greek voters and the Greek justice system.

Advise from Italian comedian Beppe Grillo: Don't condemn them to jail sentences - they will only contaminate the criminals and besides, that REMOVES them from society.
Those politicians should be condemned to INTEGRATION with society: let their assets and bank accounts be seized and let them be forced to live on €900 a month, waiting on line at the pharmacy/doctor's studio and taking the public transport like everyone else...

Now who is the fool?

"...very naughty children"?? That is the creative extent of your metaphors?

Let's see if your country could meet stringent deficit targets after four straight years of -6% recession.

Upwards of half of all Greek office workers are now waiting 3-4 months to receive a paycheck. These people did not steal from or lie to the EU.

Have you seen the pro-growth Manifesto signed by almost every Prime Minister in the EU, except for Merkel and Sarkozy.
Cameron's name went first, but Italy was the largest economy within the Euro-zone to sponsor the Manifesto. Yet another brick in the wall of diplomatic isolation of Merkel in Europe...

"I saw no reason to protest against George Papandreou ..."
You must be blind, not very clever or taking strong drugs to claim such a nonsense. The whole world sees Greece cheating and breaking promises permanently, just you keep on being plain naive. Don't you read the news, for example this article???

"Have you seen the pro-growth Manifesto signed by almost every Prime Minister in the EU, except for Merkel and Sarkozy."
Yes I have, it is very good. Something so clever would have never had the signature of Prodi if he was still in charge.. or of any other lefty in Italy.

"Yet another brick in the wall of diplomatic isolation of Merkel in Europe"
You really live in your own world. It's pretty good that others take the initiative as well once in a while, isn't it? Merkel isn't paid for leading Europe but to lead Germany.

Mashed Potatoes, try to keep your arguments coherent. You appear to be a privileged child who lives in a very rich country, and your lack of life's experience prevents you from empathizing with the plight of a working man.

You need to suffer, at least a little bit, in life to become a descent human being.

No response is necessary. I do not have the appetite for childish nonsense.

People are dieing, and you do not care, because they are not yours. Disgusting, makes me want to never visit Germany again, if there are many more like you.

"It's pretty good that others take the initiative as well once in a while, isn't it? Merkel isn't paid for leading Europe but to lead Germany."

...to lead Germany straight into a dead end, and Europe with her.

The entire botched response of Europe to the Greek crisis may be ascribed to the current explosion of German Nationalism. Of course, given history, the Germans must be "political" about expressing this, but let us call it exactly as it is: not Isolationism ("Germany would be better off without military engagements, such as in Libya") not Competitiveness ("Most countries in Europe are simply not as competitive as Germany and should not be in the Euro") but sheer naked German Nationalism.

Instead, the Germans have still not got it into their barbarian heads that merely having a larger or richer economy does not give a country the right to lead.

But, finding themselves unable to lead and unaccepted by the Rest of the World as leaders, Germany attempts instead to express a sort of economic "Veto Power": We Will Not Pay a Cent to Anybody.

Just wait till the next round of 7-year budget negotiations in Brussels. It will be fun watching Germans discover that southern Europe, as a bloc (given Italian net contributions) is a marginal net contributor to the EU. Refunds for German money will have to come from Central Europe.

You mix up nationalism with the justified fear for one's own money, but that's not surprising about you. And guess what: Italy has to become more competitive otherwise it will leave the Euro. It is doing so at the moment because Monti is in charge, not Prodi. Prodi would have destroyed Italy. Oh, and as long as others want the money of the barbarian heads they have every right to lead they way they feel like and will continue to use their "veto power." And in the end of the day, Greece will be out of the Euro.

Don't worry, before you get a brain I won't discuss with you. And please, do not visit Germany!

Too late. Already bought the tickets. Can you play Canasta? If so, I'll steal you're shirt and leave you out in the cold in your underwear...laughs

Dropped by a Greek no less. Oh the shame...

Elenitsa,
Ela tora, mi to pernis toso sovara.

Aren't Greeks wonderful people. Always laughing and joking, and picking people up with their humor.

Come back my Dear Girl! Zorbas will teach you how to dance.

Honestly between you and me, if she's German, it may not be possible. You know dancing to them is putting on brass band music, and sawing a tree stump to the rhythm.

And if you can't dance, you can't...worth a damn either...laughs

I'll give you a beating is more like it Pierrot, but you would probably enjoy it, and then I would have to stop..laughs

di Genis you are a psychopath. Get some help. Whatever the problem is, it can be fixed but you need professional help. Do it now.

Yasoo Mori! They deleted all of my wonderful comments, go figure?. So, I will hazard a guess and bet you have a lovely head of hair. With or without the beard? Just kidding!

Nope, no professional help for me thank you very much. The way I figure it, why dare to trust the Greek God like perfection that is me, to a lesser mind then my own.

Ohpa! Ohpa! Shall we do it on the kitchen table then?

Ellinitsa, if you think I'm crazy, you should meet our friend vivahorsemachete.

Viva! Come out and play. Our friend Elinitsa is here! Admittedly, she's not well, but I ask, what fun would she be if she were?

Now I'm off to run my errands. Presidents Day you know. How I love the Holidays!

But before I go, one last question. What nationality are you? Make it at least part German, and I already have a joke for you....laughs

I have disagreed with Ellin many times, but I also feel your post needs a correction. It's not the institutions: Greece has the same institutions as any other EU country. It's the people who lead these institutions and their actions or failure to act that determines the quality of the state functions. And of course their appointment and check is a government business, so you know where the problem is.

Dear Sir,
"Your experience with Greeks is mixed". Oh, Can you tell me exactly what's this "mix"?
Greece' coffer is empty, real taxpayers of Greece are fleeing the country as you said, so I guess there are only paid pensioners (dogs, cats ...) left in the country, then I guess further that Greece's state coffer has only cashoutflow, no cashinflow. While, debts and interests thereof is stacking day by day (see Greece's debt clock).
Exactly what the dear leaders of the EZ are thinking about? BTW, why Merkozy disappears recently, while I heared murmurs about Meronti (Merkel - Monti)?

Hi TomAlex, I would like to correct you. In fact, it is the institutions which matter. Institutions lead people because they channel their behaviour, not the other way around. By definition, institutions include all kinds of shared society rules, such as written laws but also habits, daily routines and moral rules. It's actually these institutions which make people behave differently all over the world , not their race or the climate or anything like that. Here is a very brilliant Greek who knows a lot about that: http://www.mantzavinos.org/
You probably mean "organisations". And in fact, Greece does not have the same organisation as the rest of Europe either. An example is a well functioning business development bank, but that's in progress I heart.

mashed potatoes,

I do not think we disagree:
by 'institutions' I mean Greece has **formally** the same institutions ad say Germany: Courts, parliament, an ombudsman, various auditing-type agencies(for instance to handle citizens complaints) and so on. And of course we agree they do matter. My point is they do not function in vacuum or on autopilot. They need **people** to run them. And the quality or lack thereof of the people running these institutions determines the quality of the state. It's what you say 'functioning'. Anyone can set up an institution, but it takes people to make it function well. Hope my point is clearer now.

Of course it's not a climate or DNA/race issue. Everything bad that a greek can do, a german can do also. The issue is what does the state(or its institutions if you will) do about it. I have not lived in germany, but I can tell you for instance about the US: How many americans would drive say above the speed limit if they knew highway police was not looking?

Many Americans, and I would definitively join them if I had the right car :)

Hey Pumper,
7 more weeks and I will retire too. Until the phone rings, and they call me back again of course. But maybe this time I don't answer it. That 'ill fix 'em...laughs

Plans are in the making to travel again Dear Brother. This time to Germany and Greece. No surprises there of course.

So off I go, and when I return to America, I will write a movie script about my travels, the long awaited sequel to Kevin Costner's...Field of Dreams!

But rather then..."build it, and he will come"..., since it's Greece we're talking about, I need to tweak a little.

How does..."step in it, and he will come" strike you!...laughs

Sikko

No need to prove anything. You should recognize Your Master's Voice by the content.

Maher locked me in again with Marie-Claude in his dungeon. He likes to do that sometimes like in the James Bond movies. Not easy this time to escape.

Is this a D/A converter for use in your car?

"Is this a D/A converter for use in your car?"

It's for computers. 24bit D/A converters are useful only for playing DVDs and Blurays! If you play CDs, MP3s, etc., you don't need 24bit D/A converters. It doesn't make any better sound. Actually you can hear much worse because you can notice source recording is poor. If you want to hear really good sound, you should move to music DVDs with 24bit sound players!

An entire nation of crooks???? you are a racist idiot to think that. Same things happen in other countries too, hello!!! They (other countries such as USA) just have better means of trading in the global economy than Greece. Thats the only thing that has kept them afloat in the GLOBAL financial crisis (a crisis which by the way started from the non-corrupted!!!!!!! (sic)America, not Greece), not that their citizens are all good.....Wake up and smell the coffee!!! The whole world is not full of angels as you think, and to portray a whole nation as crooks proves only that you are racist to the bone....I wish you quick recovery....

Cool it Zorba. Just work hard, pay your taxes, and remember: Silence is Golden. Especially in your case.

To state that EVERY citizen in any country is corrupt is an unbelievable over-simplification and downright dishonest. I have been living in Greece for the past 30 years and I know your statement to be absolutely false.

You have not been living in Greece for 30 years! You are one of the Greeks on this site trying to create an impression.

Yeah Argentina is the classical case we economists study as bankruptcy through mismanagment. There was no corruption in Argentina. Could you by more hysterical? Go and see a therapist.

Ah, so you are an economist! A Greek economist!!! Time for me to inform non-Greek readers of what it means to have a degree from a Greek university:

1. Not a single Greek university is included in the world's top 300 - strange, don't you think, for a 'European' country.

2. All Greek professors are the sons, nephews, or sons-in-law of existing professors. Marry a professor's daughter and you become a professor. It's as simple as that!

3. Sorry, one more category I forgot about: you can rise in the academic hierarchy if you perform sexual favors for an existing professor. In Greek, we call this: 'erpontas, gleifontas, kai me ta kerata'. A rough translation would be: 'You crawl, you kiss ass, you perform in bed'.

4. Greek students do not need to pass ANY of the subjects for that year to go on to the next year. Yes, you heard that correctly. So, hardly anyone finishes a degree course in the specified 4 years. They take 5 to 10 years to take exams in the subjects they 'owe' and finally, 60% of them graduate (the rest are drop-outs).

5. The exams are regurgitations of memorized items from the professor's own textbook in that subject (i.e. you have to buy it to pass)!

So, when a Greek economist tells you something ...... enough said.

"All Greek professors are the sons, nephews, or sons-in-law of existing professors. Marry a professor's daughter and you become a professor. It's as simple as that"
So if I give you a list of actual professors, you will be able to tell me which relative was a professor? Because I have many friends who are now professors who have no such relatives. If you generalize to that extreme, you lose all credibility for the point you are trying to make. It's one thing to say there are a number of very bad things happening in the universities, including the election and promotions, but it's also true that many people are very very good and deserve to be there.
Same for textbooks that you are supposedly obliged to buy to pass. Not true. And I do have first-hand knowledge because I did teach specific subjects in a number of Universities. My notes, lectures, past exams with their solutions and past homeworks with their solutions were always freely available on the internet and on occasion also printed in hardcopy by the university and freely distrubuted if no textbook was available. And I was not the only one.

I've debated many things with you in the past, but this time I have to be firm. If you seriously believe it is possible to progress up the academic career ladder in a Greek university on merit alone then, I'm sorry to say this, but I cannot believe you know the system at all.

If there were people there who are 'very, very good' then why don't any Greek universities make it into the top 300? Greek academics who are 'very, very good' are alive and well in universities all over the Western world. You should ask some of them what they think about their colleagues in Greece!

Hey wait, I'm Zorbas...laughs

di Genis, do you really believe I don't know that all these aliases you use are really you? I told you a year ago that you are ill and to seek help. Go the UK for treatment like thousands of other Greeks or see a German doctor. Avoid Greek doctors - they just buy their degrees and they'll only make you feel worse than you do already. Go on, do it. Ohpa! Ohpa!

Zorba....Hmmm sarcasm!!! A great weapon for someone who thinks of himself/herself as superior.
Yes I am a very proud Zorba and have never denied my identity. Was, am and always will be proud of my country (unlike others!!). Greece has had enough "Efialtes" in its history, trust me, doesn't need anymore.
Have always worked hard, paid my taxes, lived abiding by law whatever country i lived in and will NEVER be silenced by anyone or anything. You are in no position to tell anyone what to do unless you are a dictator. Personally I think you are more of a venomous snake, out to impose your opinions due to personal issues/problems/complexes. Like I said to you before, I wish you quick recovery.
By the way, how much tax did you pay last year? And what superior non-corrupted country do you come from?

I know you never read books but there are 2 you should read before you lock horns with me.

The first is Alexis Zorbas: Vios kai Politeia by Kazantzakis. In there, you will see what a low opinion Zorbas has of his fellow-countrymen. He, like me, would never delude himself that the state you have all reduced Greece to is the fault of 300 politicians.

The second is Herodotos History where you will see that Efialtes did what he did for financial gain. I wish that were the case with me but unfortunately it isn't. What i do is called 'whistleblowing' - a concept well-established in the countries that you regularly abuse and where the whistleblower is afforded legal protection. Had there been more like me in Greece over the past 30 years, perhaps Greeks would not now be rummaging through rubbish bins in search of food.

Now, it is too late. Greece is full of people like you. How can I summarize what you are? Ah yes, this saying from better times in Greece fits the bill: 'the Wise speak because they have something to say, while Fools speak because they must say something'. Aristotle, I believe.

To assume that I dont read books is just patronising. How did you think I learned a foreign language? It all came into my head? I had to read books. People who are lazy enough not to learn languages (probably like yourself, I know I am assuming here but hey that's an example you set)don't like to read books in general.
Secondly, disillusioned threats of the type" before you lock horns with me" keep them for yourself.
Thirdly, Judas too betrayed Jesus for financial gain. The result is still the same. The act is the betrayal, the gain could be financial, "whistleblowing" or whatever else it might be. I am not looking into the gain, unlike you. A betrayal is a betrayal, no matter what the motive is for. Your motive may be "whistleblowing" (according to you) but that does not cancel the fact that you are still a betrayer. And if you read books as you claim, then you would have read that "Την προδοσια πολλοι αγαπησαν, τον προδοτη ουδεις" which translated means that "Many have loved betrayal, but no one the betrayer".
Thirdly, the wise speak because they have something to say the fools because they must say something. Well, myself being a fool, I cant help thinking that that insinuates I am a fool and you are a wise, right? thank you, with great modesty I do accept the name tag of "fool". I have mirrors in my house that tell me so. Perhaps you should put some too. You know, they can be the greatest silent "whistleblower" there can be! And they always tell the truth if you look really closely...

Thanks for that. Wonderful confirmation of everything I said!

By the way, you might also - when you have time, of course - care to read a book about Judas. Latest research indicates he didn't betray anybody. But hey, in a Greek cafe discussion, we don't let facts get in the way of a good story, do we Zorba?

Now, come on, do what you do best. Up on the table! Ohpa! Ohpa!

Well well, who talks just to talk now?
Anyway, all of the above really mean absolutely nothing to me. You can read all the books in the world my friend but none of them will teach how to really be a useful citizen of the WORLD. Oh, and another thing: neither of them will teach you how to dance ON the tables like a true Greek, as opposed to UNDER them, like anybody else...OPA OPA to the true kids of the Greek Gods, those that stay on the side of their country in good and in BAD times. To the rest, GOOD RIDDANCE. Greece never really needed them....
PS. I am still waiting for you to tell me what non-corrupted country you come from.

If you believe that Greeks are 'useful citizens of the world' and that they are 'kids of the Greek Gods' that can only mean one thing. You are medically certifiable. Insane. I urge you to seek professional help asap.

If you don't mind, I won't answer any more of your contributions. It's the 'w' word. You know, 'work'. The thing you do and pay tax on. Oh, never mind. It's a difficult concept. good luck and don't forget to see someone.

''...but by EVERY citizen in that country. I shall give an example of each kind.'' I have an ''example'' for you ,too. I'm 23 years old and I haven't pillaged any state coffer. So are many in my age, some over my age and all who are younger than me. It is unacceptable, that a person with so much hate against an entire nation such like you, gets to nake public comments in website. You have nothing to offer in a conversation, only rachist generalizations. The pathetic thing is that you get ''recommend''. I feel sorry for you

As with ALL Greeks, you take 'truth' and 'criticism' to mean 'hate'. That is why you will never change and, therefore, never exit from this crisis.

As to your other point - about being 23 and being 'innocent' - answer these points:

1. If you drive a car, did you pay 300 to 500 Euros to get your license? Or did somebody else pay for you? Have you never broken the speed limit on motorways or even in urban areas? Have you never double or triple-parked your car? Have you never parked on the sidewalk?

2. If you have attended university, did you pass all the subjects in a year before going on to the next year? Did you attend lectures regularly? Did you join one of the political youth movements as a student?

3. Have you ever walked into a pharmacy and just bought antibiotics without a doctor's prescription? Have you never bought any other prescribed medicine without a doctor's prescription?

4. Are you an ethnic Greek? By that I mean: Is your hair black and wavy? Is your nose straight and does it come straight down off your forehead? Do you have an olive complexion? Just to give you an example, do you look anything like Sakis Rouvas or Alexis Tsipras (I hate him but he is an ethnic Greek!).

Look forward to your (honest) answers.

0.''As with ALL Greeks...''=rachism
1.No, I didn't pay or smn else. I think I have broken the speed limit for about 10 k/h in motorways. I have never tripled-parked my car, I have double-parked but not for more than 10 minutes. Never parked on side-walk.
2. This whole section has nothing to do with disobedience of the law. In foreign univercities do you have political parliaments inside the university???? University is for knowledge and science... Has nothing to do with each political life.
3. No and no
4. No, I don't look like Sakis Rouvas or Tsipras... I really don't understand... what do you mean by ethnic Greek? And being ethnic Greek means I'm not innocent?
Now you.
1.How old are you? And where do you come from?
2. Which are your sources of information?
3. Do you think by generalizing facts like the ones in previous comments is rachist?
4. Do you think that the sections of questions 2,3 and 4 has to do anything with the bankruptcy of Greece? Or are in any accordance with disobeying the law?
5. Do you think that by generalizing facts and applying them to whole Greece and its people is ''truth'' and constructive criticism?
6. Do you know the inventor of TEST PAP? It's for breast cancer. I'm sure you know it. Do you know that he was Greek? Do you think he also, manipulated the other scientists and deceived them to accept his medical discovery?
7. Would you describe a rachist as a hater, and a hater of a nation as a rachist?
Thank you forehead, for your time and your answers.

I would also want your comment for the next link. http://dailyinfographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/working-hours.png thank you

Well, you raised many points and I'll do my best to answer most of them.

I am 61 and an ethnic Greek living in Greece.

Generalizations are at the heart of any form of human enquiry - science, history, sociology etc. Of course, we must be ever-vigilant for exceptions to the rule since they are the drivers of new model-creation. But, generally speaking, a generalization that is seen to work in practice is an achievement. Here are a few generalizations for your consideration: German cars are reliable; French food is delicious; Italians love pasta; Russians drink a lot of Vodka. You will always find people who dismiss these as 'stereotypes' and pull out a counterexample. Nevertheless, if you live by these generalizations you will - statistically and in the long-run – be more often right than wrong. That is how you should see my remarks regarding Greeks.

The Pap Test is a test for cervical cancer (not breast cancer). Papanikolaou developed it in the US where he worked for many years. Not sure why you mentioned that.

My sources of information are: books, magazines, academic journals, newspapers, and the Internet.

The bankruptcy of Greece does not have an economic cause. It is due to a moral and ethical collapse that began in 1981. In that sense, my questions about pharmacies and driving are directly relevant. Greeks are lawbreakers in every area and, therefore, they will also avoid paying tax, offer and accept fakelakia etc.

Finally, it is your choice whether you choose to interpret these comments as 'racist' or not. Entirely up to you. For me, they are simply facts based on observations and reading.

Yes, I've seen that chart before. There is a fundamental misunderstanding and I'll do my best to explain it.

Greeks must understand the difference between 'working' and 'being at work'. 'Work' is judged by a quantity called 'productivity'. 'Being at work' is judged by 'number of hours'. Now, the really important quantity is productivity because that determines how well you will perform against your competitors in the global market. For example, if you make cars, productivity is measured by Number of Cars per Worker per Day. So, Germany has the highest productivity in Europe (and one of the highest in the world) but it has the shortest working week in Europe.

Greece, of course, has one of the lowest productivities in the world. Go into a police station and see 4 policemen sitting around a table eating cheese pies. Go into a bank and see a cashier with a cigarette in the ash tray and a frappe next to him/her. That is not 'working' - it is 'being at work'.

Finally, I would add this. If you are disorganized, you have to work longer hours to achieve the same result. Again, Germany (and Northern Europe in general) are highly organized so they can do more in less time. Do you know how long it takes to set up a company in Greece. Around 6 months. In Singapore? 26 minutes!!! That is why half of you are Communists and why you hate the globalized free market - because there is no way you can survive in such an environment.

Here is something else i can reveal about myself. My favorite Greek politician of all time was an Athenian named Draco (in Greek 'Drakon')who lived in the 6th century BC. He, of course, gave his name to the English expression 'Draconian punishment' (in Greek 'Drakontia poini').

This occurred because - when he was asked by his fellow-citizens to draw up a legal code - next to every crime he put the letter 'theta' (in Greek, 'thanatos' or 'death'). when they expressed surprise at the severity of the punishments, he replied: 'Most things deserve death and, for the more serious stuff, I couldn't think of anything worse'.

Where are you Draco? We need you!

I agree with the concept of how you use generalization and how it proves to be right in long-term. Yet, you can't attack an entire nation. As I mention I'm 23, and since you 61 years old, you should consider yourself more responsible of the situation than me. You can't be more mad than I am, since it seems that your generation has received many benefits from the Greek goverment, and I now I have to leave my country so that I can have a future. Yet, publicly speaking about your country or its people like this, doesn't benefit us at all. Not because you reveal all the possible crimes Greeks may do, but because you don't provide anything in this conversation. Your comments have nothing to do with constructive criticism. You are right about Test PAP, it isn't about breast cancer, that is where it applies to. I mention Papanikolaou because he is Greek, and i wanted to show you that by generalizing things you may offend Greek figures like this, who have offered a lot in society. You said that Greeks are lawbreakers. I can assure you that Greeks outside of the borders of Greece are nothing like this. They respect the law just everybody else because they know that if they don't, there is going to be a penalty. Whereas in Greece everybody rolls, being either Greek or any other foreign nationality. So it isn't in the genes... It is in the corrupted system. Which begins from the Universities with all those political parliaments. Which is their role in there in any case?
Finally, since you are a Greek, you know very well the meaning of the word rachism, and my characterizion of your comments as racist isn't personal opinion, is a fact because of the meaning of the word. ''Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination. In the modern English language, the term "racism" is used predominantly as a pejorative epithet. It is applied especially to the practice or advocacy of racial discrimination of a pernicious nature (i.e. which harms particular groups of people), and which is often justified by recourse to racial stereotyping or pseudo-science.''

I found myself to be a Capitalist and supporter of Friedman, so I don't think that someone would called me Communist. Anyway, another friend of mine remarked the same thing. I agree, there is a lot difference between productivity and working hours. All of your examples are from the public sector. Since this chart shows that the average person works 41 hours, the increase is generated from the private sector, where I don't think you can find same examples. Finally, as to the differences in organization, you told it yourself, if anything is to blame is the system, your generation have been building all these years.
*In Belgium, to set up a company it takes 10 minutes, access to internet and 20 Euros.

Drakon was no politician, he was tyrant and oppressor. In order to be politician, you have to be chosen by people through democratic ways. The word you are looking for is either one of the above or dictator. Anyway,the only thing that I can aknowledge is that by his initiative, the laws were written. I'm not here to debate if death is the right penalty or not for stealing an apple. But who is anyone to judge something like this. I don't think that Drakon was so moral in his entire life, so that he would be the one. Tyranny is held stable, through crimes against humanity, oppressing worthy men or anyone that can take him down. This isn't moral and doesn't contribute in the development of society. I guess you are Xountikos ,too. I know a private school which is thriving right now in Thessaloniki. It is built in a field which used to be public but after Xounta, Patakos took it and gave it to his nephew. And this ''wonderful'' family is rich enough and live happily ever with public property...

My post regarding Draco was, of course, not meant to be taken seriously. In responding as you did, you have (inadvertently) confirmed the Greek 'stereotype'. When Venizelos went to his first meeting in Brussels as Finance Minister, this is what one of his EU colleagues said about him: 'Typical Greek: always late, always unprepared, always humorless, always responds to criticism by biting like a dog'! Think about it.

Yes, you are right in saying that ONE of my examples of productivity (the police) is taken from the public sector. However, given the Soviet nature of the Greek economy, that includes many industries vital to the functioning of a modern and efficient state: the trains (OSE); power provision (DEI); universities. In all these (and many more) productivity is disastrously low.

I notice you mention the Military Junta that ruled Greece 1967-1974. My position on that period is this. Democracy is always preferable to dictatorship but on one condition - it must be a functioning democracy. To me, the wholesale criminalization of Greek civil society - and the sight of Greeks rummaging through rubbish bins to find food - suggests a non-functioning democracy. This is how many Greeks felt in 1967 (I would say around 70% of them), which is why they initially welcomed the Junta. The economic results of that period were also impressive (check out the Wikipedia article 'The Greek Economic Miracle'). So, I am not a 'Xountikos' in principle, but in our five thousand year history, it has often been necessary to impose order through through uncompromising state power.

I shall answer your other points in a separate submission.

I would like to address the issue of 'racism' which seems to be on your mind quite a lot.

Am I a racist? Well, it depends on what you mean by that term. The dictionary definition that you gave is, to me, unsatisfactory because it refers to 'stereotypes'. I have already explained why I refer to 'generalizations' and why I think these are useful statistically and in the long-run.

Aristotle deals with this problem when he debates whether 'education' or 'character' is more important in shaping a person's behavior. The former is 'the environment', the latter is DNA. His conclusion, arrived at reluctantly because he believed so much in education, was that character (i.e. DNA) is decisive. So, he was a 'racist' in that sense.

I assume you would answer this by pointing out that Diaspora Greeks are creative, industrious, and successful and this proves that what's going on in Greece can't be due to DNA. I don't think things are quite so simple and here's why.

I would define the fundamental Greek characteristic to be 'unrestrained egoism'. That is, the desire to excel individually in relation to others at all costs. I believe that characteristic to be hard-wired into their DNA. In that sense, Diaspora Greeks are identical to the Greeks of Greece. Both groups try to excel under the 'rules of the game' that they find around them. Now, in Greece, the 'rules of the game' were set by the Great Leader, Andreas Papandreou. Greeks voted for this criminal not once, not twice, but three times! The name of the 'game' which he created is 'corruption'. So, according to my previous reasoning, Greeks are simply trying to excel under the 'rules of the game' as their DNA forces them to. Just like Diaspora Greeks.

Hence, given all of the above - the belief in the primacy of DNA over 'education' - I am, like Aristotle, a 'racist'.

About the thing you said, that I didn't manage to overpass your ''stereotype'' and that your comment wasn't to be taken seriously, you can't blame me for this, since we have been having a serious conversation, where both sides express their arguments. If you were joking you should have remarked. It is difficult to understand irony through written speech. Now on the public sector thing and your example of the policeman, all the examples you laid above are or used to be public sector... What I was saying is that in public sector, it is measured the standar 8-hour working, so it isn't the one that makes the difference, but it is the prvate sector where Greeks are obliged to work longer hours just to keep their works. In your 3rd paragraph i have nothing to argue, I agrre with your points. What I was pointing there is that even with such a conservative party to rule someone would except a higher moral in the way you put it.

First of all, is there anybody to disagree that Ancient Greeks were thinking way too superior of themselves over foreign? Since you are Greek you probably know the phrase ''Πας μη Έλλην βάρβαρος'', or a quote from Socrates ''τριῶν τούτων ἕνεκα χάριν ἔχειν τῇ Τύχῃ· πρῶτον μὲν ὅτι ἄνθρωπος ἐγενόμην καὶ οὐ θηρίον, εἶτα ὅτι ἀνὴρ καὶ οὐ γυνή, τρίτον ὅτι Ἕλλην καὶ οὐ βάρβαρος'', and finally Euripidis quote "βαρβάρων δ’ Ἕλληνας ἄρχειν εἰκός, ἀλλ’ οὐ βαρβάρους … Ἑλλήνων· τὸ μὲν γὰρ δοῦλον, οἱ δ’ ἐλεύθεροι"(I apologise to anyone that is following this conversation for my Greek). So we would agree that Ancient Greeks were the least nationalists and racists. Then, you express your opinion that "the desire to excel individually in relation to others at all costs. I believe that characteristic to be hard-wired into their DNA.", this is a personal opinion and you haven't supported it with any argument whatsoever. But even if this statement is valid, how would you explain some Diaspora Greeks who have done great things and have offered many things in society(e.x. Papanikolaou and many others) or even yourself whom you imply to be an exemplar of ethos and callus? I am very proud of our philosophers but they weren't always right. This is something unfundamental to say. And since sience hasn't found any gene about it let me have my second thoughts. Finally, as to Andreas Papandreou example and his three-time election I am going to say that people elect the politicians they deserve, in which I think you would agree.Yet, there is still a minority who doesn't vote them and by making generalizations you don't respect them! And respect is the least that anyone can offer to them, because they try to survive in a society that it can't live up to their demands.
Finally, I would like to ask you why you don't include yourself when you speak about Greeks and you refer to us in third person? By genes you are Greek! At least, no less than anyother Greek considering the fact that many are the wars in Greece and the nationalities that have passed through our country.

You mentioned earlier that you are 23 and facing a future without hope. So, I thought I would leave you with some 'words of wisdom' which you may find useful or reject as you see fit.

The situation today is very similar to 1453. The city has fallen. We have no resources to continue the fight. Slavery is now our inexorable fate. Demagogues will tell you otherwise but the reality is that we are finished. After 1453, Greeks chose between two options.

The first was to leave and never return. This movement was the origin of the Greek Diaspora with its many achievements in commerce and culture. Diaspora centers such as London, Paris, Vienna, Trieste, and Odessa later produced the Greek Enlightenment that formed the basis of the Filiki Etaireia and 1821.

The second was to stay and serve the new Ottoman masters. This too was successful because it led to the Phanariot class that eventually administered the empire and the Greek commercial class of Constantinople that dominated its trade.

Whichever way you go, I am sure you will prosper and Greece will live on through you and others like you. Of course, it is sad that we were unable to succeed as an autonomous state. It seems that our egos are too strong for us to live in our own country. I now wish to make a general declaration for anyone who may be reading this.

Prior to 1981, Greece punched above its weight and – notwithstanding a meddling monarchy, a military dictatorship, and a squabbling political class - generally stood tall in the community of nations. Well, all that began to evaporate in 1981 and there were two main causes: the evil lust for power of one man, Andreas Papandreou, coupled with colossal amounts of easy money from Europe that allowed him to corrupt all and sundry. This is a statement I cannot make in Greece because the media is totally under the control of Leftist elements.

I would agree less or more, and thank you for the advice, and I'm trying to plan of my leaving of this country. Yet, I have only one remark to make and this is about your last comment " the media is totally under the control of Leftist elements.". This is because my opinion is that there isn't any true reprsentative of Leftist party or a true supporter of this ideology. The policies that are followed right now, are nothing but an extreme Rightist's methology who would try to protect the banking system in order not to cause any trouble to foreign economies. Thank you for the conversation, but please considerate of not generalizing when you address certain facts and in the end characterizing a whole nation as crooks. Just think of the minority which may or may not embrace your views. This minority deserve the respect and shouldn't be ashamed to say that they are Greeks.

You have to be very, very careful when you quote ancient authors. Ancient Greece is not a unity - there were many different viewpoints expressed and this, of course, is the reason for the greatness of the period. I am very tired of hearing the phrase 'Pas mi Ellin varvaros'. Yes, many Greeks did say that, but some important Greeks strongly disagreed.

For example, the Spartans never used the word 'Barbaros'. For them, EVERYONE living beyond the borders of Lakonia were 'oi xenoi'. You can read about that in Herodotus. Also, we have Alexander, the originator (in my opinion) of what we call today the 'multicultural society'. You can read what he says about Greeks and non-Greeks in his famous Oath of Opis.

As to my own position, since you ask, I shall answer you this way. When Aristotle began to have his own ideas that differed from those of Plato, he was accused by some of 'betraying' his teacher. He replied 'I love Plato but I love Truth more'. That is my position too. To lie or conceal things about your country is not patriotism. The highest form of patriotism is to tell the truth because - as the saying goes - 'The truth will set you free'.

I agree. I just wanted to point out that Aristotle was a racist! As many other living in Athens. I agree that Spartans and Macedonians had nothing to do with Ancient Athens and their way of thinking. You quoted Aristotle, I quoted some other philosophers to establish that Ancient Greeks were racists. As to Macedonians and Spartans, their policy against "foreign" people was nothing but friendly or respectful, by taking into account their expansive policy or having the attribute of a warlike. Yet, Alexander the Great even being a conquer, was always respectful of foreign culture but someone would say that he may had his purpose for this, since he wanted to keep going with his campaign and he was in serious need of supplys and menpower.

Finally, in your last paragraph, you say that the truth will set you free. By generalizing things you don't express truth. You misguide the foreigns who doesn't know what's going around here! Everyone should seek for the truth and the constructive critisism, but you do it in a total way, that doesn't offer anything and doesn't improve things! Again i plead you to respect the minority!

My advice is forget the word 'racist'. It is too broad to have any useful function and people use it today as an excuse for not having any proper arguments.

For example, many Ancient Greeks may have expressed their feelings of superiority over non-Greeks but they also saw each other as 'foreign' in many respects. I hope you know that it was virtually impossible for a Greek to obtain citizenship in another Greek city-state. Periklis tried to get his mistress Aspasia (of Militos) Athenian citizenship and there was huge opposition to this 'foreign woman'. You cannot, therefore, say that the Athenians were 'racist' towards a woman from another Greek city! It's probably better to say that most Greeks were Cultural Chauvinists.

Herodotos, of course, gives a definition of who is Greek and 'race' is only one of four criteria: 'omoglosson' (speaking Greek); 'omothriskon' (believing in the Greek Gods); omoethon (same customs and traditions; 'omoaimon' (Greek racial descent).

Finally, I urge you to read the Oath of Opis for Alexander's views on race.

Here is Alexander's Oath of Opis:
“IT IS MY WISH, NOW THAT WARS ARE COMING TO AN END, THAT YOU SHOULD ALL BE HAPPY IN PEACE.

FROM NOW ON, LET ALL MORTALS LIVE AS ONE PEOPLE, IN FELLOWSHIP, FOR THE GOOD OF ALL.

SEE THE WHOLE WORLD AS YOUR HOMELAND, WITH LAWS COMMON TO ALL, WHERE THE BEST WILL GOVERN REGARDLESS OF THEIR RACE.

UNLIKE THE NARROWMINDED, I MAKE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GREEKS AND BARBARIANS. THE ORIGIN OF CITIZENS, OR THE RACE INTO WHICH THEY WERE BORN, IS OF NO CONCERN TO ME. I HAVE ONLY ONE CRITERION BY WHICH TO DISTINGUISH THEM VIRTUE. FOR ME, ANY GOOD FOREIGNER IS A GREEK AND ANY BAD GREEK IS WORSE THAN A BARBARIAN.

IF DISPUTES EVER OCCUR AMONG YOU, YOU WILL NOT RESORT TO WEAPONS BUT WILL SOLVE THEM IN PEACE. IF NEED BE, I SHALL ARBITRATE BETWEEN YOU.

SEE GOD NOT AS AN AUTOCRATIC DESPOT, BUT AS THE COMMON FATHER OF ALL AND THUS YOUR CONDUCT WILL BE LIKE THE LIVES OF BROTHERS WITHIN THE SAME FAMILY.

I, ON MY PART, SEE YOU ALL AS EQUAL, WHETHER YOU ARE WHITE OR DARK-SKINNED. AND I SHOULD LIKE YOU NOT SIMPLY TO BE SUBJECTS OF MY COMMONWEALTH, BUT MEMBERS OF IT, PARTNERS OF IT.

TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, I SHALL STRIVE TO DO WHAT I HAVE PROMISED.

KEEP AS A SYMBOL OF LOVE THIS OATH WHICH WE HAVE TAKEN TONIGHT WITH OUR LIBATIONS”

Pretty impressive, don't you think?

It is! But what has to do with anything I said? So he was a qonquer and then he blessed his empire with an Oath. Of course he would like to bind his empire with peace multinationality. But don't oversee the thousands that were killed.

Ellin you can either use a word or not. You can embrace the rightness of not having superior idea of your kind and your nation or not. You can not ban a word! That word has a meaning. Since it characterizes a certain kind of people is good enough for me to use it. Ancient Greeks may not have been racists as we would call the Nazi but in different perspective they kind were. Since you don't approve the meaning of the word racist based on stereotypes and pseudo-science, find me a meaning of the word racist that it wouldn't fit in Ancient Greeks behaviour towards foreigners.

I believe the only 'racist' - in the modern sense of the word - among the ancients was Aristotle. In his references to 'barbarians' you always get the feeling that he is talking about DNA. But the two references you quoted (Plato and Euripides) are really expressing a cultural superiority. They believe they are blessed by being born as free citizens in a Polis and that feeling ran very strong among the Ancient Greeks.

There is, of course, a connection with Alexander here because Aristotle was his teacher for 3 years. We know that Aristotle did everything he could to deter Alexander from invading the East. His view was that 'Asiatics' were 'natural slaves' who could never absorb the values of Hellenism. Well, the Oath of Opis shows us what Alexander believed. Who was right? Personally, although I respect Alexander's vision, I'm with Aristotle on this. There is 'something' in Greek DNA that makes them different ('anadelfos laos') - not superior or inferior, just different. Their behavior cannot be copied and - this is important in the current crisis - they also cannot copy others.

I will answer the charge that my statements (e.g. 'nation of crooks')are too general and ignore the 'virtuous' minority. Of course, it would be an injustice to an 'innocent' to be called a crook. But, you must understand that I truly believe what I am saying. I have NEVER met or heard of a Greek living inside Greece who was not a regular lawbreaker. The process began in 1981 and progressed to the point where it includes EVERYONE. It gives me no pleasure to say that but it is, in my view, the 'truth'. As you know, Truth is the master that I serve.