Security in Norway

Anti muslim propaganda is allowed in Norway. The second biggest political party is more or less defined around that. Certainly this terrorist act opens up the question, whether anti-muslim or anti religious propaganda, no matter which sect be the target (apart from the criminal Scientology church) should be tolerated at all. Fascism/nazism should be fought back and its perpetrators pushed back into their holes as one does with other rats - meaning made punishable by the criminal code. Same as one fights groups like Hells Angels and other psychopaths - organized or acting as individuals. It may well be that within several decades every fifth European will be a muslim. So be it! If N-Africa and Turkey will be allowed to join the EU, 30% of the EU population will be muslims. It is correct that industrialization is not as advanced in muslim countries as in most European countries. It is also correct, that public education is poor in most muslim countries, as it is in most poor countries of other faiths. That does not mean that something is inherently wrong with Islam as a religion. For almost a thosand years, muslim countries belonging to the various caliphates or the Ottoman Empire where the bullwork of education and culture in the Mediterranean area, while Europe was submersed in the anti-cultural, anti-educational spirit of what then were the various Christian denominations. This has changed to the advantage of Europe. But it shows, that other factors are at work besides religion and affecting the cultural standard of nations and wider regions. Or should we say that Europe has reach a cultural high ground in spite of the Christian denominations and that the muslim world has degenerated culturally despite Islam?

guest-wnmeame wrote:
Jul 27th 2011 3:45 GMT

@Upper Caste Hindu Bigmouth

GUEST-WNMEAME

Please don't get confused about this man.
@Upper Caste Hindu Brahmin Is a Chinese Government paid blogger.
No Hindu in his right mind would ever use a pseudonym such as this - especially a well educated one.

Sorry, but this is what will continue to happen when people betray their own country and go out of their way to let Islamic people get away with rape and murder on their own doorsteps. A Cruel Time comes, when to save a nation's deepest values, we have to disobey the traitorous government. This is the well expected backlash against treason, their socialist corrupt practice, abuse of power and appeasement policy towards Islamic terror and deceit. Perhaps the Scandinavians are finally rising up against the massive Islamic incursion and occupation of Malmo, Oslo, Stockholm and many other cities "While Europe Slept" (by Bruce Bawer). Such a pity that we have hitherto chosen to be dismissive of the fear and discontent that was brewing up in an otherwise very tolerant society.

@Upper Caste Hindu Bigmouth

"Aaaah..all the bombings are to be blamed on Muslims as per Holy Father Benedikt who said "All terrorists are Muslims" despite the murderous crusade that his cult is carrying against Jews and Muslims since 2000 years."

Many religions have a history of violence, including both religions you cite as being victimized by humanity. The Old Testament gleefully recounts the numerous peoples destroyed by the Israelites, while Islam spread by the sword until it was stopped could at Tours in 753. In fact, Islam over its history has dished out more punishment than its received, given that Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and much of North Africa used to be Christian. Istanbul was Constantinople and all that.

Also, I didn't realize that Christians were time travelers. Persecuting Islam for 2000 years is a rather impressive feat, as it was founded less than 1400 years ago.

@Sherryblack

“Did you not hear of the Al Qaeda attacks in Madrid? London?“

It was 6 years ago. But since then, nothing serious has been carried out despite verbal threats (e.g. when UBL was killed). You’re right that security measures and intelligence operations are important part of thwarting the attempts – but inability to overcome security measures indicates their insufficient strength as I said in my previous post.

Anyway, the 10th anniversary of 9/11 is in 40 days. I’m quite curious whether they will be able to organize something on that date (if I remember well, the UBL documents showed that they were preparing derailing trains in the US).

@Tomas Marny

"foreign terrorist groups...do not have enough strength or motivation to carry out similar attacks in Europe"

Did you not hear of the Al Qaeda attacks in Madrid? London?

It is not that they don't try but that the west has gotten better at thwarting their attacks over the years.

Plus disrupting their bases along with Afghan/Pak border with drone attacks also helps.

According to German intelligence, 100 white Germans are training in Al Qaeda camps right now.

It has taken a lot of gritty work to thwart Al Qaeda terrorist attacks, most of it is top secret intelligence work.

@Tomas Marny

Norway has always been one of the most steadfast members of Nato.

Currently it has troops in Afghanistan and is also taking part in Nato's bombing campaign in Libya.

@Sherryblack

“Norway has been a member of Nato for decades but don't let the facts get in the way.“

You’re right - my mistake. It was probably because Norway is rarely being mentioned when controversial events associated with NATO operations are covered by media and thus I have associated Norway rather in the group of neutral countries like Sweden or Switzerland...

Anyway, returning to the core of the matter: within all this tragedy, there is one positive moment – foreign terrorist groups (remember that originally Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed responsibility for this attack) do not have enough strength or motivation to carry out similar attacks in Europe but they only try to “parasite” on attacks carried out by others.

Domestic terrorism is very painful but it’s difficult to prevent it because the terrorists can be inconspicuous people from your neighbourhood. In this sense, the Oslo attack was not much different from the Arizona attack against MP Gabrielle Giffords six month ago or assassination of Swedish minister Anna Lindh in a Stockholm shopping mall in 2003.

If we consider ways to prevent it in the future, in addition to restriction of legal guns trade, it would also be desirable to decrease tensions in European and American societies stemming from increasing divergence between the worlds of business and politics on one side and common citizens on the other. If this trend is not stopped soon, we can expect more violent attacks that will be conceived as “desperate deeds” by their culprits in the near future.

@Coolfonz - now you're just silly. There's been a bunch of proxy wars, but it wasn't right killing left of any reason, but rather one form of radical (Mujhadeen) killing another (Communist). Different era and you can't equate the two. Radicalism kills its opposition, right or left, doesn't matter. And as to your suggestion that the Left somehow provides "free" health care, etc., we all know better. There's no such thing as a free lunch. With the government, especially. There's taxation and regulation with that lunch.

As for this: "Today if you are pro gay rights or pro abortion in the US, especially in the mid west, you live in fear, are attacked, killed or beaten." Hooey. I am both pro-choice and pro-gay-rights. I don't live in fear of any of that. In some of the Deep South and Mid-West, yes, there's some yeahoos that might do violence. However, the most of these types relegate themselves to protest, however heated they might get. It's a shame, really, you've cloaked your argument with hyperbole: there's a lot to like about some of the left argument, but your arguments appear unpolished and unreasoned.

As if the violence was not enough, I was disgusted with the behaviour of the media. Coveraged in the hours immediately following the attacks featured reckless speculation, uninformed (and wrong) terrorism "experts" and asinine questions. I single out BBC in particular, from whom I expect better. Congratulations to Norwegian officials, who would not be drawn into the specutlation. In the post- "News of the World" era, the public needs to demand better from the media.

Aaaah..all the bombings are to be blamed on Muslims as per Holy Father Benedikt who said "All terrorists are Muslims" despite the murderous crusade that his cult is carrying against Jews and Muslims since 2000 years.

"Has anyone considered the possibility this man may have mental problems? Or is a physcopath (sic)?"

He's no more extreme than most of the right wing fruitcakes on the Economist's boards, or you for that matter.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/07/24/idINIndia-58425420110724

"The near-sinking of a police boat and a decision to await a specially armed unit from Oslo some 45 km (28 miles) away delayed the Norwegian police response.

The shooter went about his deadly work undisturbed by police for an hour after the first reports of gunfire, other police officials said on Sunday, revising a previous estimate of almost 90 minutes."

Has anyone considered the possibility this man may have mental problems? Or is a physcopath?

Extremism of any flavor leads to atrocities such as this and is abhorrent. Tolerance and moderation in political discourse is essential to a democracy.

My condolences to the Norwegian people who enjoy a very tolerant and open society. This tragedy will not change that.

I'm not sure what is more amazing. The attack or the xenophobic racism/apologism and knee jerk reactions of the Economist reader-nutjobs.
Ultra right wing people have been and are slaughtering left wing and even liberal people around the world for years. AlQuaida and the Mujuahdein were the darlings of the European right in the 70s and 80s when they were killing central Asian liberals and leftists. The Colombian right wiped out the entire parliamentary candidacy of the leftist parties in the Colombian elections of 1984. The US gave lists of 250,000 leftists to the Indonesian military junta all of whom were wiped out.
Today if you are pro gay rights or pro abortion in the US, especially in the mid west, you live in fear, are attacked, killed or beaten.
What leftists give you is free education, free health care, social tolerance and greater social integration. What the right give you is war, death, gulags and gas chambers.
The thing is, you can't kill us all...

Now we've Christian extremists carrying out these terror attacks in Norway (just as bad as al-Qaeda): we've too many extremists.
This “an-eye-for-an-eye” attacks are causing more hatred, more conflicts and more violence: a vicious circle that we all have to suffer endlessly.

We all live in a multi-racial, multi-religious world. We all have to respect each other regardless of your skin color or religion. The West obsession to ridicule Muslims, Islam (and also ridiculing other religions or poor countries) is simply an accelerant to fuel more anger in the Muslim community, radicalized more Muslims to become extremists, provoke hatred leading to more conflicts and violence.

We all will be better served to engage in sustainable and profitable economic developments (broadly and widely) that will benefit the ordinary people and the investors (win-win situation). The jobs, the prosperity and the opportunities (created by broad and wide economic developments) will lead to people busy making money, terrorists and extremists will simply dwindle to insignificance.
Of course, all these economic developments must be based on a basic principle: “The common interests of a society are best served by the pursuit of individual interests on a level playing field (which must be open and transparent) under the framework of the rule of law (which must be efficient and non-corrupt) with a certain degree of social responsibility and social justice”.
Also, you must have good, clean and efficient government.
You must have stability.
With stability and good policies, it will encourage investments, economic developments, creating jobs for the people.
With economic growth and full employment, the people and the country will create more wealth.
With more wealth and resources, the people and the country can afford to invest more in education, health care, infra-structure etc….leading to higher productivity and more economic growth and wealth creation.
This will lead to a virtuous circle of higher productivity, higher efficiency, more growth, more wealth, more stable society.
As more and more people becoming wealthier, enjoying higher standard of living, we increase the chances of people resolving their conflicts peacefully without resorting to violence. This is the virtuous circle that we should have, not the vicious circle of an-eye-for-an-eye endless hatred, endless attacks and endless counter-attacks.

It just shows that Judeo-Christian talibs could be just as deadly and fixated in their ideology as their counterpart in Islam.

[commonsensical wrote: Jul 24th 2011 8:34 GMT @ Devil's

"There is no such thing as an "equal-equal" comparison for no countries or individuals are exactly equal. I am comparing the callous attitudes of the propaganda industry of the white West then with those of some (like ME!!) NOW."

Ah I see. Then there is hardly any "comparison" between the two on (i) quantity (ii) quality (iii) logic (iv) persuasive abilities, or (v) even English comprehension for that matter! Even including the usually trollish "50-centers" many of whose comments only adds to the nonsense. But hey good luck with your effort anyways :-)]

OK. OK. You win-- On persistency! ;-)...

Devil's

@ Devil's

"There is no such thing as an "equal-equal" comparison for no countries or individuals are exactly equal. I am comparing the callous attitudes of the propaganda industry of the white West then with those of some (like ME!!) NOW."

Ah I see. Then there is hardly any "comparison" between the two on (i) quantity (ii) quality (iii) logic (iv) persuasive abilities, or (v) even English comprehension for that matter! Even including the usually trollish "50-centers" many of whose comments only adds to the nonsense. But hey good luck with your effort anyways :-)