Aug 4th 2011, 16:08 by R.L.G. | NEW YORK
WHEN the summer weather isn't too muggy, my wife and I take the longer walk to a subway station that gives us a shorter train ride. Every time, we pass this place. For the first time today, she, a non-native but fluent speaker of English, finally asked me: "shouldn't it be the Sweet Little Café?"
We went inside, got a coffee, and asked the owner where he was from. The Dominican Republic, it turned out. I confirmed with him that the most usual Spanish would be "el pequeño café dulce". This didn't help me determine whether his native language interfered: yes, "little" comes before "sweet" in this Spanish rendition, but it also comes before the noun: "the little café sweet". So I just asked him: why "little sweet", and not "sweet little"? "Well, the café is little, but it's not 'a little sweet'." That didn't really help me either. To my intuition, in "sweet little café", the "little" modifies only the café, and the whole (little) thing is sweet.
Neil Whitman took a look at the literature on adjective ordering, and sums up thus:
Linguists still do not have a definitive answer. What they do have is a hierarchy of adjective classes that (for whatever reason) occurs in a more-or-less fixed order in English. The order is fixed in other languages, too, though not all, and it’s not quite the same order across languages. Here is a composite hierarchy I’ve assembled from those given in several sources I’ve looked at:
evaluation | size | shape | condition | human propensity | age | color | origin | material | attributive noun
I'd take "sweet" as an "evaluation", and so my wife's and my intuition line up with the literature here. But what if you tried to fill in each slot? "The sweet little square run-down laid-back old red Dominican brick corner café" makes rough sense, but I think I'd prefer "the sweet little square run-down laid-back old red-brick Dominican corner café", partly because I want the "red" and the "brick" to go together. Other orders might also make sense, depending on what you want to emphasise. So Mr Whitman's findings are more probabilities than rules. But the probabilities are sometimes pretty strong.
Since it really was sweet, I'll probably keep ordering coffee there, no matter how they order adjectives.
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regarding "Big F**king Truck" and "F**king Big Truck":
In my experience the adjective f**king noun construction would indicate that, whatever the noun is, it is f**king adjective. The f**king gets put between the adjective and the noun because it sounds better there - especially in the big truck example.
Conversely, in f**king adjective noun the f**king isn't so much an intensifier as it is a filler - The speaker is so awed by the noun that they can't quite process it fast enough and throw out f**king just to fill the space before they comes up with adjective.
So a big f**king truck is f**king big, and the speaker wants to emphasize just how f**king big it is. A f**king big truck may not be any bigger, but its bigness is f**king surprising.
I see at least one comment pointing out that the name, Little Sweet Café, is surely intended to entice footfall into a "little café that sells sweet things" like coffee, crepes, waffles and desserts.
What's more, it worked.
Isn't having a "little sweet" a common NY colloquialism?
After reading the exchanges about the truck, I'm still not convinced by Johnson's interpretation.
In "f**king big truck", I listen to "f**king" as an intensifier to "big". In "big f**king truck", it sounds just as an added expletive to what is a merely big truck — not "f**king big".
To work as an intensifier for "big", as R.L.G says, I'd maybe expect a comma between the two words — "a big, f**king truck". Then I would listen to "f**king" as a modifier to "big", not just as an added expletive.
But then, this could be the result of a more limited exposure to spoken English. As a foreign speaker living in South America, I read English much more than I listen to it, and I listen to it more than I speak it. That could make a difference.
As to the sweetness and the smallness of the café, I think NikiMat nailed it down. A very good comment.
@Old One,
A f**king big truck sounds to me bigger than a big f**king truck.
NikiMat,
Thank you very very much, for the required education. You are most generous in sharing your professional knowledge.
@Kroaz Du
I stand (actually sit) corrected. A crêpe is made with wheat flour and a galette with buckwheat, different flours as you say. Both are usually sold in crêperies. But then, I know little. I merely eat, not cook.
Re your second point, "the adjective the closest to the noun is the most important, creating a hierarchy"; this is valid as a general guide but, like "never brake in a bend" and many other rules, is not, and should not be, followed slavishly. For instance, one may say a "big, red car" but, even if one wishes to emphasize that it is a big car, is unlikely to say "red, big car". It just doesn't "sound right".
@R.L.G. (The Economist)
This is one case where Kraz Du's rule does apply, in my view. If I had just been almost run over I may well refer to a "a big f**king truck". The size is not really important. Getting run over by a "f**king truck" is the point. Any size of truck is not desirable.
On the other hand, if I saw a contractor moving a 200 tonne piece of equipment I may comment that he used a "f**king big truck". The use of a truck is unremarkable. This one, however, was "f**king big".
And that is how I would understand what was said.
"Café" in Spanish can denotate either the store (as in "Café y Bar") where coffee is served, or the beverage itself, as in drinking coffee. The store owner indicated that the intended meaning was the beverage, and that he meant "sweet" as an adjective qualifying coffee (as in the sugar-sweetness of a cup of); but then, in idiomatic Spanish, you would never say "el pequeño café dulce" but "el cafecito dulce", or "el dulce cafecito" if you intend to be a bit poetic or seek an attractive name for the store. Some of the preceding comments called attention to this. The endearing diminutive for a small cup of coffee is "cafecito", not "pequeño café". "Pequeño" ("little") would rather be reserved to denote the size of the locale where coffee is served (and here yes, your wife is right, it would be better to have used "The Sweet (as in "quaint" or "lovable")Little Café". It is evident that the owner, though native in Spanish, is not a linguist, and that he offered up a back-translation, on top of which he also missed to convey his intended meaning in English. Maybe "The Sweet Coffee Café" might have eliminated the ambiguity and set the record straight? "Little" may safely be left out of the equation if the store name is intended to mean the beverage rather than the shop.
This is my humble opinion. I am a native speaker of LatAm Spanish, and a professional certified translator of English.
This article is a sweet find, a sweet little find.
@Varq: galettes are not crêpes (different flours), although galettes tend to be savoury food items.
In English as a second language classes, it is often mentioned the adjective the closest to the noun is the most important, creating a hierarchy. Here the accent would be put on the sweetness of the café, rather than its small size.
Varq, I have to disagree. There's work out there on f**king as an intensifier, which I can't find right now, but "a big f**king truck" definitely means a really huge truck; the f**king, despite its placement, is there to let you know the speaker really means what he's telling you. In fact I think that "a big f**king truck" is actually more intense than "a fucking big truck". The latter carries (for me) more of a sense of mild surprise, as if the person was seeing the truck for the first time, not sure just how big it was going to be. "A big f**king truck" is more like the same speaker telling someone else later.
@jomiku
Interesting that you assume that all of the items listed are sweets. I would not have made this assumption although, from the rest of the item, it is clear that the speciality is sweets.
A crêpe may be either sweet or savoury. A waffle is usually sweet, although I have also had them as part of a savoury meal. A galette, not mentioned, is unequivocally, a savoury crêpe. If I went into that place I would be most disappointed to find only sweets and would politely excuse myself and leave.
@Old_One
A f**king big truck is, obviously, bigger than a big f**king truck. The former is a truck and it's f**king big. The latter is big and it's just a f**king truck.
Ever heard the joke about the Latin ballplayer that collided with the American fielder while they were both chasing a fly?
As the story goes, he kept yelling "La tengo, la tengo!" and was unable to hear the other fielder waving him off and hollering, "I've got it!"
Problem is, as ballplayers will tell you, in Spanish you are most likely to yell, "Mía, mía!" and not "La tengo" — basically a literal translation of "I've got it!"
The owner's explanation actually makes sense for native Spanish speakers. You can drink "café dulce" (sweetened) or "amargo" (unsweetened). In his words, "Well, the café is little, but it's not 'a little sweet'." In naming the shop he's basically calling it, "El cafecito dulce" as already pointed out in I believe the second of the comments to this post.
"El pequeño café dulce" is not a phrase you'd hear in Spanish (the why of the apocryphal baseball joke) though it may very well have been used in the post so as to clarify what the syntax appears to be telling us.
Using the "proper" English syntax (Sweet Little Cafe) wouldn't do in this case, even if more grammatically correct, since it would then be the equivalent of saying "The Enchanting Coffee Place."
There could be another interference here: in Spanish the primary meaning of café is coffee (as in a cup of).
I would use the diminutive -ito to indicate it is the cafe that is small
El cafecito dulce.
I've always just relied on intuition when deciding on adjective order, but this is a great resource! There is a similar discussion here, but your hierarchy is much more comprehensive.
When I was in college, a friend of mine wrote a term paper for her linguistics course on the question "Which is bigger a big f**king truck or a f**king big truck?" I forget the actual result, but I do remember being surveyed.
I accept proper nouns on their own merit.
Jomiku, it's not a cafe primarily selling sweets. And the owner told me he intended to have "sweet" be an adjective. (Not an attributive noun, in Whitman's terms, like "corner cafe" or "shoe shop".)
LexHumana, I think "Bad bad Leroy Brown" works better than "Bad bad Leroy Brown".