The busy Balkans

Let them sort out their problems by themselves. No more babysitting !

Justinian the Great - No you are not the macedons if by "forever" you mean the hellenic (ancient) Macedons? You have not a drop of their genetics or a connection. Macedons are actualy Serbo-Bulgarians even their "language" proves it, it's a pure mix of two (already similar) languages. Feel free to call yourself what ever you want a macedon, a spartan a klingdon (from start trek( I'll respect it but respect my sense of humor once I laugh when you try to prove it...It's imposible. And you never won any legal fight that concerns history! What more you would propably be forbiden to educate history if a case were to be open. Macedons actualy belive Dusan the mighy,Nikola Tesla, Vuk Karadzic and many many more of Serbian,Bulgarian,Greek even Albanian people were theirs.

Stealing other peoples history wont do much good!

@Antisomething

You didn't answer my question.

If a name is just a name as FYROM (and its apologists) keep claiming... then why doesn't FYROM simply change it? Put action to words rather than lying about motives.

@Antisomething

"when up to last few years Macedonians were saying that they have NO CONNECTION to Alexander"

The real questions are why are the former self-identifying Bulgarians claiming a connection now? Why are the building giant Alexander statues? Renaming Stadiums? Roads? Airports? Teaching their children that their are decedents of ancient Macedonians? Encouraging massive numbers of their citizens to see Macedonia Greece is occupied? (with endlesss "united Macedonia" rhetoric) Did history suddenly change?

Do you see it as a human right for a 20 year old country to attempt to take away the identity of its neighbour and threaten its territorial integrity? Is FYROM being smaller country justify its attempts to ethnically erase Macedonians of Greece? Do you really think FYROM works alone in their current efforts and isn't being backed by countries much bigger and more militarily powerful nations than Greece?

@Antisomething

If its only a name is just a name as FYROM (and its apologists) keep claiming... then why doesn't FYROM simply change it?

@Antisomething

You are the one that makes me laugh. The pointI made is that Greece objection isn't solely over a name as some dishonestly attempt to suggest. (as you do). Its also about FYROM's attempts to usurp our identity and use it to threaten our sovereignty. (getting those with prejudices towards Greeks to do their dirty worth of a subtle form of ethnic cleansing)

FYROM can call themselves whatever they wish. They (and their apologists) are also free to oppress their own ethnic Bulgarian heritage it they wish too (just like Tito era Yugoslav communists did). I'm sure all the records of their Bulgarian past and ancient macedonian artifacts will rewrite themselves to suit their new state narrative. However, we also have a right not to be coerced by obvious Greek haters into calling FYROM "Macedonia".

I would also note the former Yugoslav republic removed recognition of the Republic of China. (Taiwan). Why don't you argue for FYROM to recognize them as you do with Greece? Don't hypocrites like you believe in Taiwans absolute right self-determination as you claim for FYROM?

"The Macedonian side stated once again that it will not establish official ties of any form or conduct official exchanges with Taiwan, and that it opposes Taiwan's accession to any international organization whose membership requires statehood"
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6315770.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1394486.stm

@The European (aka a FYROM natioanlist using "european" as a handle to obfuscate his identity)

Got to love it. Now you fanatics claim there are no Greeks? I beg to differ. You accuse Greeks of "genocide" but it is you who is involved in ethnic cleansing.

Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Persians, Chinese and Japanese could be cited as examples of ethnic continuity, since, despite massive cultural changes over the centuries, certain key identifying components—name, language, customs, religious community and territorial association—were broadly maintained and reproduced for millennia. - Anthony D. Smith British Professor Emeritus of Nationalism and Ethnicity LSE, Nationalism and Modernism, 2003, Cambridge University Press.

@Antisomething

Your strawman arguments say more about you than Greece. No Greek objecdt to FYROM having a name, identity and country. We have no problem recognizing Albania, Turkey, Bulgaria, etc.. etc... We even recognize Macedonia USA. Athens Texas. etc.. etc..

What we object to is an attempt by a neighbour to usurp OUR identity and use it to threaten OUR sovereign territory. Identity is a human right. Not identity theft (which amounts to ethnic cleansing)

Your logic is ridiculous. Greece objected to their usage of the name because it suggested they are trying to usurp our identity and use it to threaten our territory. FYROM own diplomats assured foreigners that isn't their intent and that they aren't claiming to be related to ancient Macedonians (to gain recognition). Then later when they get recognition they did exactly what we suggested they would do

Now you claim Greece is to now blame because FYROM government encourages its children that Greece is occupied territory and they are descendents of ancient Macedonians? Seriously?

To me, people like you are morally complicit in an ongoing attempt to ethnically erase Macedonians. (i.e. the Macedonians that live in THE Macedonia not ancient paeonia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_%28Greeks%29

................

'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.' - FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper, February 24 1999

@Likethestate

Macedonian 64.2%, Albanian 25.2%, Turkish 3.9%, Roma (Gypsy) 2.7%, Serb 1.8%, other 2.2% (2002 census)

"Your arguments are an inversion of morality and reason. Greeks objected to their name use specifically because we said they would try something like this. The so called experts ignored us. Voila the results."
So you really think if Greece recognized name Republic of Macedonia that they would build giant statues of Alexander? Dont think so. If you are calling person an asshole for 20 years, then he will start acting as one. Same goes for countries. It seems to me that Greeks for last 20yrs dont want to hear pledges and promises from former Macedonian leadership about ancient history.

Regarding that they are Bulgarian, its funny.They are what they are and they call themselves Macedonians.So, who are you to say they are not?

Looking only 100 years back, the spoken language in Solun, Macedonia was Macedonian meaning not Hellenic. Since then the land has been given to the newly established Greek nation and genocide followed of the Macedonian people and change of Macedonian areas/cities/streets/people names into Greek.

Nobody speaks of this today, how come...

As for the so-called Greek people, there are no Greek people, it is as mixed as the rest of the Balkans. If you want to meet ancestors to the old Hellenic people, you would have to visit some of the distant islands around the mediterranean.

As for Greece in EU, do not bother, this is not a nation, there are no structures, there is no industry to build upon, nothing works, and the land is on the brink of collapse as a nation. Why, because there is no such think as a Greek culture or a background to unite around. So pouring a lot of our tax money into an artificial state will never help.

@Antisomething

Open a book then get back to me.

"The political and military leaders of the Slavs of Macedonia at the turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate Macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as Bulgarians rather than Macedonians." - US Anthropologist Loring Danforth, "The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World", Princeton Univ Press, December 1995

@Antisomething

Your arguments are an inversion of morality and reason. Greeks objected to their name use specifically because we said they would try something like this. The so called experts ignored us. Voila the results.

Blame Greece for its fiances. For FYROM patronizing people like you are to blame. Take moral responsibility for your own mistakes rather than dishonestly try to pawn them off on others.

@Likethestate
For last 20 yrs Macedonian politicians were saying that they ARE NOT descendants of ancient Macedonians. But after 20yrs of being bullied by Greeks they started to piss of Greeks hence Alexander's statue.If Greeks have just a little bit of brain in their heads, they would recognize Republic of Macedonia 20 yrs ago, but as recent events showed us, they dont.
And btw, all ex Yugoslav repuclic are calling Thessaloniki Solun, so would you call Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosnians, Slovenians and Croats Bulgarians... prey?

@nexdor

Using quack pseudo-scientific DNA claims to define your identity sort of sounds like the approach of these guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Hitler believed he was part of a ancient German race just like you guys believe you are part of a "Macedonian" one.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-24/hitler-dna-tests-show-he-likely...

If you are "macedonians" as you now claim... pray tell why do you hate Hellenic culture? I seem to recall ancient Macedonians loved it no? Rather odd that you would hate your own alleged heritage and substitute it with another. For instance, what is an authentic ancient Macedonian toponym?

a. Thessaloniki (a name given to it by Philip in reference to Alexander's half sister)

b. or "Solun" (Bulgarian toponym for above)

If you are "proud" of your "Macedonian heritage"... why would you constantly reference the names of Macedonian cities with Bulgarian toponyms?

Or another example.... why against don't you want to be able to read the Greek writing on ancient Macedonian artifacts? Chinese learn Chinese. Jews Hebrew. French french. Why do you "Macedonians" prefer a Bulgarian dialect modified and renamed "Macedonian" by Yugoslav communists?

Seems to me your government's chief interest in the name "Macedonia" is more about self-glorification rather than actual concern for trying to preserve aspects of authentic Macedonian culture (i.e. Greek). That's the main difference between us. We actually do care.

With all bickering about name of Macedonia, this is what I dont understand:
Macedonian leadership many times stated that they ARE NOT descendant of ancient Macedonians, they are Slavs who came in 7th century in land called MACEDONIA. So, why not letting them call themselves Macedonians and country Republic of Macedonia?
If you call them FYROM, then ban all non native Americans to call themselves Americans because they all came from Europe, Asia and Africa, they are not there from 10th century b.c.

@nexdor

And what does that have to do with the giant Alexander statue and "united Macedonia" rhetoric going on in FYROM?

Greeks do not object to the former Yugoslav region of Vardar having a unique identity and their own country. We do not object to Macedonia USA. What we object to is FYROM trying to create an identity that attempts to take away ours. I don't think this is unreasonable request.

You could have just as easily gone back to calling yourselves Bulgarians or even created a unique identity. You wanted to fight again though. So here we are.

Every ancient Macedonian reference going up in FYROM today is a testimonial to the fact we were right to object to name recognition 20 year ago. (back when your government officials and diplomats assured everyone you were not related to ancient Macedonians to get recognition) The longer FYROM apologists pretend not to notice your sudden shift in ethnic narrative, pretend not to know about your Bulgarian past, pretend not notice your "united Macedonia" rhetoric, the more it becomes apparent they have severe prejudices against Greeks.

@Reluctant Polluter:
you make the point that to most people in the world this is a stupid non-issue. One can say that "look, after WWI, the Entente Allies denied Austria their chosen name "German Republic of Austria" even though the only party with a legitimate interest, namely Germany, had no objections and you will probably say "that was a mistake long time ago, we should not have cared"( except it would have made Hitler's task even easier). Nevertheless the whole point is that we are talking about a country with NO relation to the region and much smaller, both land and populationwise to the region and no historical connection wanting to get the name of ALL the region and basically obliterate the regional identity of the real region inhabitants. To compare imagine Iran deciding to take the name "Europe" and want anything European, values, culture, languages and what have you to refer to them and NOT the real Europeans. Or, that Stalin had renamed Siberia "Alaska" after WWII
and look at the prospects of the US(a country that has problems with 'french fries') recognizing a former soviet breakaway state of 'Alaska'. Or that Argentina breaks up and one region decides to go by the name of 'Republic of the Falklands'.
Or that Kossovo decides to call itself 'Tetovo'. Couple that with a history of blood for the region, a government that tries to rewrite history and 'prove' that ex-bulgarian slavs arriving in the region some 1000-1300 years ago are descendants of Alexander and bring up their population with insane theories of how they have been 'harmed by the evil greeks'. Their PM wants to speak on behalf of the 'macedonian minority in Greece'. The fact is that first, there are 2,5 million macedonians in Greece(more than the population of FYROM) who elect their own reps, including two people who served as PM and president for a combined 30 of the last 55 years oppressing ... themselves, they do NOT want any minority status, they want nothing to do with Mr. Gruevski and did not appoint his to speak for them. They are the ones this is all about because they do not want anything 'macedonian' to refer to others and not to them.
Even so, Greece has proposed a more than generous compromise "FYROM can be Macedonians-even though they are not- as long as they aknowledge that they are not the only ones, by adopting a name like "upper', 'northern','slav', 'slavoalbanian' or whatever. This is what the other side does not want to hear. So your feeling that this is a stupid dispute is correct. But the stupidity is not shared.

Another example of biased reporting.

Some attempt to portray Greece as the only country that has ever objected to FYROM's name. In 20 years I have yet to read in a single British or American newspaper that calls FYROM Macedonia mention this "slight" detail of history.

It is no wonder that, in matters of politics in the Balkans, Greece feels misunderstood. It cannot understand why, after it stood alone with the United Kingdom against the forces of fascism between 28 October 1940–Ohi day, as it is still called–and 27 April 1941, when Athens finally fell, its former allies now appear to be taking the part of forces against which it stood, especially when, after the second world war, it endured those further four years of civil war to hold the line against the communist advance to the Aegean. That was done for the United States and for the United Kingdom especially–the world powers of the time–and those Governments objected, in 1944, to Tito’s change of the name of Vardar Banovina.” (Edward O'Hara, House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 May 1995, Column 602)

Again. How is that possible details like this go missing in reporting if FYROM apologists were being remotely objective?

@Reluctant Polutter

Incidentally... I'm not specifically mad at you (unless you actively support them which I don't think you do). You call them Macedonia because that's what everyone else decided to call them. I am mad at those in the media and foreign politicians that now play dumb around their sudden change in ethnic narrative and "united Macedonia" rhetoric. (which I sincerely interpret as prejudice directed at Greeks)

A perfect example of this is the ridiculous ICJ verdict. Yes. The agreement said not to block FYROM. However that same agreement had other parts as well. (the parts FYROM nationalists have suddenly developed amnesia over)

Article 3 - Each Party undertakes to respect the sovereignty, the territorial integrity and the political independence of the other Party. Neither Party shall support the action of a third party directed against the sovereignty, the territorial integrity or the political independence of the other Party.

Article 7

1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.

3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.

@Reluctant Polutter

Further reading by 372 (and counting) acccredited historians from around the world. (including premier universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, Harvard, etc..) How is possible that that that reference FYROM as "Macedonia" never give voice to so many qualified professionals? Rather odd no?

On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.”  This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great."
http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html