Poland and Lithuania: a rare bit of good sense

Thank you, EL, for posting the letter from Lithuanian intellectuals. Over here in Poland we certainly don't get the full picture, and I don't think Poland's "largest catholic magazine" is the chief culprit. It's a shame that none of the mainstream media had bothered to make a story out of this. Perhaps because there's nothing to add. "Nic dodać, nic ująć" as they say over here. Pity, too, you also had to add your usual...

I don't want to be primitive, neither to go deep to the topic. But looking from my own subjective point of view, it is another attempt by Polish to provoke political conflict. The only reason I can see for two countries "to be close allies" is geographical propinquity. Over the history Polish showed their opinion to Lithuania: as Lithuania has always had smaller population, territory and influence, it has always been an "inferior" neighbor to Poland. Lithuanians are not respected by Poles and there is no reason why Lithuanian Polish minority should be awarded with so many rights. All recent decisions made by Lithuanian Parliament were right, though minor. Their importance was clearly overexaggerated. It might show new direction of Polish politics. Anyway, I see absolutely no reason to try to find a compromise (what we always try to do.) Lithuanians are just to coward to stand for themselves, especially when now it is not only a simple economic-political question, but also a principal issue of our identity.

And I am not trying to be radical at all.

@Jan Pomorski
>>give Polish people right to be Polish like we gave Lithuanians here right to be Lithuanians.
That's exactly what new education law does.

@mikeinwarsaw: (pano Michale, cześć)
In a Europe where a majority of people are members of some kind of minority (ethnic, religious, national etc.) this controversy about nationalism and minorities has a very old-fashioned ring to it.
Poland and Lithuania can be rightly proud of their success in preserving language and culture through two centuries of foreign domination. But their present extremely homogenous populations, certainly compared with the rest of the continent, are more due to the horrors of WW2 and the appalling forced migrations that followed, than to their own civic virtues.
Voluntary (and forced) migration has been going on for ages. Four hundred years ago my own Scots ancestors were transported to Ireland and forcibly anglicised: Mickiewicz/Mickevicius might not have been impressed but this got them out of the way well before the Highland Clearances - fortunately for me. From them I inherited an unusual family name (first four letters MCCR) which French and German, as well as Polish, officials will sometimes reject as an obvious spelling error. It hadn’t occurred to me before that they might be breaching my human rights.
And the hordes of (very welcome) Polish and Lithuanian migrants who have flooded West in recent years will have experienced plenty of linguistic obstacles including wilful mis-spelling. I recall a rather good Welsh footballer named Krzywicki which the TV commentators always pronounced like ‘krizwikky’. Having few options, he was very good-natured about this. And the leading lights of Polish politics (examples include Rostowski, Sikorski, Bielecki, Gronkiewicz-Waltz) don’t seem to resent their experience of a London that neither knew nor cared how to spell or pronounce their names properly, either.
It’s no surprise that there’s a muddle about how best to write Polish names on a Lithuanian typewriter: but it’s truly astonishing to learn that grown-up politicians can score points with it.

@Cheesus Crust
I don't need to read all Your nonsenses, like "Poles have mastered politically correct facade". You can say that about every nation.
I live in Szczecin, it was German, now is Polish - I don't want and can't change that.
You live in Vilnius, it was Polish, now is German - You want but You can't change that.
There is no need to fear that we, together with the Poles living in Vilnius, will go there and somehow try to get it back. It's just not possible, even if some extremists here think it is (I don't think and don't want that). And this seems to be the real reason You persecute and prohibit being Polish in Lithuania.
So spare us this emotional rubbish and give Polish people right to be Polish like we gave Lithuanians here right to be Lithuanians.

Hi discussion club! :)

Poles, just as any large nation throughout Europe are very diverse folk. And subsequently there're many ways Polishness is understood. Using mental broad strokes in the way outsiders try to understand and then depict the way they see Poland is deceptive. Impressions are just what they are – impressions. They too often will lead you astray, like in the case of ascribing to PiS the objections to LT's treatment of her minorities.
Poland's characteristic feature is Church taking part in political life. I dislike it, want to change it, but just as a large part of society I understand the reasons. Too little time to explain now. But automatic ascribing confraternity with Church to just the right part of the political scene leads you astray and makes your understanding of Poland fuzzy, to call it mildly.

There're politician from both largest parties - PO and PiS which seek and receive support from the Church.

Yes we are very proud generally, that's one of the panpolish traits, sometimes our weakness, sometimes strength. But to alleged aggression (verbal) I have absolutely no complexes considering what happens (verbally and physically) in the countries West of Elbe.

Regards and have a nice weekend

@Jan Pomorski
I see you can write English. But can you read it?

@mikeinwarsaw
>>Unfortunately similar views and beliefs are held by large parts of the populations of many other central eastern european States, including Lithuania.

Yes, including Lithuania. The more homogeneous society is, the less tolerance it has. Poles in Poland make 97% of population. Lithuanians in Lithuania - 80%. This figure only is enough to discard any of Poland's accusations about minorites in Lithuania and other countries.

>>I find the Poles theoretically (officially) tolerant but in fact at least half of the population is consciously or subconsciously grossly intolerant.

Confirmed. As I said in other thread, Poles have mastered politically correct facade. Well, many Lithuanians don't bother even about at least facade.

This all historical-religious-industrial talking has no sense and it's not to resolve.
It's about ordinary people lifes and rights and the facts are:
While the Lithuanians in Poland have all their rights respected, Poles in Lithuania don't. That's the only fact I can see here and that's the fact we need to deal with - in the Polish way - hard ! The same thing with Germans, they have minority represantation in Polish parliement, we don't have in German parliement - deal hard with it!

As a member of what is a (european) ethnic minority currently living in Poland, I find the Poles theoretically (officially) tolerant but in fact at least half of the population is consciously or subconsciously grossly intolerant, full of rabidly aggressive pride and arrogance not only towards other nationalities, ethnic groups and religions but even towards any other Polish citizen who thinks differently or has different values from themselves. This behaviourial and beliefs system is exemplified by the populist nationalists of the Right and their Roman Catholic Church confraternity. They seem to be mainly located in the eastern half of the country which is also the part which is most backward in all terms of measurement.

Unfortunately similar views and beliefs are held by large parts of the populations of many other central eastern european States, including Lithuania. Probably the sole exception is the Czech Republic. Is this because the Czech Republic is by far the most industrialised, urbanised and non-religious and has a relatively high standard of living?

Omni

Could you point out where exactly I am wrong instead of calling me arrogant?

Great mongo's views is a clear case of epistemic arrogance

@Josh_01
>>My impression is that Poland demands of Lithuania what it doesn' t give to its own minorities, though, but I' ll follow this debate a bit more and am ready to think it over;-).

The first impression is the right one, usually.

A complication is that the majority of Polish speaking minority is not Polish ethnically at all. (If you don't believe me, read this: "country's Polish-speakers (a loose category, not quite the same as ethnic Poles)" "http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/schools-of-unreasonable-thought-on-educational-reform/70696.aspx")

Some of them identify themselves as ethnic Poles. But many of them DO NOT. I have a friend myself who has a perfect Polish surname in my view, but claims he is not Polish. But not Lithuanian as well. He consideres himself "a citizen of Lithuania". No ethnicity since he don't know who ethnically he is. But definitelly not Lithuanian and not Pole. And that's a failure of Lithuanian state minority policy. Lithuania made good living for all minorities who know who they are, but missed Tuteyshy since you will not find such a ethnicity on the existing lists.

Poland should step back from this problem and leave it for Lithuania to resolve. Lithuanian indiference made the problem worse as some politicians in the region, in the Lithuania and now in Poland are making political points on this situation. The Vilnius rural region, ruled by Polish Election Movement is now the least democratic part of Lithuania, where freedom of speach is almost non existent. One Lithuanian MEP called this region "little Belorus".

No one outside of the two countries knows about this, or cares. Europeans and their old world, navel gazing, and self important view of history and the world around them tends to hold back their progress on important issues of peace and prosperity.

PrinceAlbert & Cegorach:

Some Polish government departments may have software designed to deal with common non-Polish letters and accents, but most typewriters, keyboards and software in any country cannot easily deal with anything other than the national alphabet of that country.

On top of that, most people simply do not have the linguistic skill or training to interpret foreign alphabets and accents.

And where should the line be drawn? If Lithuania accepts the official use of the Polish alphabet, should it also accept the use of Greek, Russian, Georgian, Devengari, Arabic and Chinese?

In private life, people should be free to do as they please, but, in the name of national unity and simple efficiency, a government has to be able to draw a line.

People should realise what country they actually live in and make some attempt to harmonise with local conventions.

@princealbert

Cyryllic is also accepted, though obviously as a secondary option in addition to transcryption.
Still proudly displayed in the documents if the owner wants it.

I must admit I've read about the letter (in Polish in "Gazeta Wyborcza") with true delight.

It is very important that elites speak against nationalist lunatics who will never cease because their 'cause' demands it and the 'cause' is never met because it cannot be so their efforts last forever. At least they feel good about themselves - so do people who support them, read their exalted rants and vote for them.

It is nice to hear that Lithuanian prime minister seemed to support what was said in the open letter. We will see how it goes in deeds after the words were spoken.

-----------------------------------
About Mr. Sikorski. I wouldn't link the comment to the affair - Mr. Sikorski and the Civic Platform are seen as mortal enemies of these nationalistic fringes for a long time and the supposed 'concessions' are just another mace to club them with.
The situation with Lithuania wouldn't even be mentioned if it couldn't be attempted to be used against Mr. Sikorski and the government of Mr. Tusk - that is how political moves are defined in our lovely populist-nationalist right.

And about discussions about history in the comment section. All what was, is and will be said was repeated thousands of times so whatever. It is impossible to change minds of some people unless they allow it, all the harder because changing mind after a long discussion seems like a capitulation.
If facts are contradicting your vision - damn the facts!

Unfortunately the ultra catholic nationalist politicians in both Poland and Lithuania are largely to blame for the remarkably un-christian verbosity and actions towards ethnic minorities in both countries. Those politicians are a throwback to the period between the two World Wars when ultra nationalism in its authoritarian form (led by Germany) resulted the catastrophy of 1939-45 and subsequent events. They seemed to have learn nothing whatsoever from the lessons of recent history and the cynicism of draping themselves in christian symbols makes it even worse.

A plague on all of them!

Just one more comment on my side :)

As far as I know foreign letters are accepted in official Polish documents. The software used for the delivery of Polish IDs contains a list of 31 of such characters, unknown to Polish language. The most typical are the German Umlauts, which appear in names of many 'ordinary' people but also public figures (e.g. Danuta Hübner, Polish MEP).

@Forlana
>>the Poles in Lithuania, thousand years old nation
Stop posting BS and we will leave history aside. "Poles" in Lithuania is 150 years old nation.