Poland-Lithuania

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,694709-Oboz-litewskich-nacjonalistow-na-Wilen...

Lithuanian nationalists set up a camp in the middle of the the area inhabited by Poles and other national minorities in Lithuania in order to "convert" them back to "being Lithuanian". The camp is called „Ačiū Dievui(-ams), kad gimiau baltas” what can be translated as: "Thanks God(s) I was born white" or as the organizers claim "Thanks God(s) I was born a a Balt". Some members of the Lithuanian Border Guard participated in the camp. The camp is co-financed by the some parts of the Lithuanian government.

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/656850.html

Voice from Lithuania:
http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/2011/04/29/lithuanian-poles-after-two-de...

"Lithuanians and Poles were urged to make a truce, at least during Easter, since the majority of people in both countries are Catholics, but a more important question regarding the future situation remains unanswered: what turn will the relations between Lithuanians and Poles, Lithuania and Poland take during the next 20 years, Arunas Brazauskas wrties in Lrt.lt portal on 22 April.?

The price is known
Two months ago, Poland’s President Bronislaw Komorowski in an interview with the magazine Rzeczpospolita indicated the minimum price for a good neighbourship: Lithuania has to resolve the issue concerning the spelling of Polish names; in the territories dominated by Polish residents bilingual place-names have to be hanged, and the matters regarding the restitution of Polish property in the Vilnius region have to be settled.

It’s hard to imagine a politician in Poland who would renounce these demands publicly and then expect to remain in politics, especially when the European Court of Justice will most likely order Lithuania to legalize the spelling of names and surnames in the original language(s).

Some Lithuanians are mad about the self-made street name plates in both the Lithuanian and the Polish languages often seen in the Vilnius region. Well, you can be mad all you want, you can even go to court, but it seems that no authority in Lithuania will order to take those street name plates down.

What is more, Poland can give a good example: in the rural district of Punsk there are plates with Lithuanian and Polish street names. Obviously, this is the work of Polish government, not Lithuanians.

The Lithuanian Government promised to take care of the matters concerning the restitution of Polish property. This means that in two years Poland will have yet another opportunity to see if we keep our promises. Most probably a brand new Government will be accountable but the promises were made by Andrius Kubilius.

What’s all the fuss about?
We can be sure that it won’t take two decades before Lithuanian documents contain Polish names in their native language and certain areas have bilingual place-names. And yet there are Lithuanians who keep on defending the clearly desperate positions. Perhaps all the ruckus is needed to disguise a shameful defeat?

Recently, our media has published Antonis Pacukas Radczenka’s article “To Win Without Being Victorious” from Lublin’s periodical “Kultura Enter”. The author says: “Currently, Vilnius and its immediate surroundings have more Polish schools than before the restoration of independence. During the Soviet period, there were very few Poles with higher education, only the Romany had less. Today, the situation is much better: Poles can be found in the private and the governmental sectors, we have Polish scientists, company leaders, artists, and journalists.”

Lithuania is trying to ensure that the young Polish generation learns the Lithuanian language really well. It’s very unlikely that there will be no Polish officials in Lithuania 20 years later. Quite the opposite – they will be more educated and more concentrated politically, and they will be presenting their demands in fluent Lithuanian.

Perhaps Polish politicians will have a broader influence throughout Lithuania. After all, Russian accent didn’t prevent Viktoras Uspaskich from getting into politics and obtaining power. And if some Lithuanians are dissatisfied with such forecasts, they may as well start a campaign for the withdrawal from the EU. "

@Forlana
>>...This opposition made the alliance impossible and both parties are now in opposition...

Obviously you have no clue about this (Vilnius mayor elections) topic. You should discard your Polish sources.

Josh_01

so faced with such issue:

'Why people living in one spot, should change their names for the sake of governmental clerks comfort, just because a new set of clerks has arrived in their neighbourhood ' - as is in the case of Poles in Lithuania

your answer is beacuse Americans, Brits, French and Germans e.g. don' t know how to pronounce ł,ą, ę etc. ;)

Nobody is asking that Polish immigrants into these countries should have right to original spelling. But AUTOCHTONES in a given land should, in my opinion.

Just as Lithuanians or everybody else in Poland has.

If your vision of the totally Americanized world prevails, and everyone agrees to that - no problem (I will fight against it, together with the Germans and Lithuanians, French, Russians, Czech and all those funny people with their ridiculous alphabets :) - . But we are living today not in the future.

If you cite this article
http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,9403737,Polski_Niemiec_wsparl_niemieckiego_Po...

you must be fully aware of the disproportion about the ways Polish minority (I don't mean immigrants) is treated in Germany and German one in Poland. It is not just Hombura (whom you prpbably depict correctly), the problem actually exists. And is slowly settled. Without Poland's attempts at hitting German minority, which does take place in LT, but will be overcome as the last news from Vilnius give hope. So if you are aware of it you should support the claims to stop the Nazi German law operating still in Germany, not refute the claims.

Perhaps Polish oficials inflate the number of Poles of Polish origin, I don't know where do you get the correct data from. From German officials who included EVERYBODY who has some distant German roots, as plainly German?

>no immigration country regards immigrants who have come on their own free will as "minority"<

We are talking about autochtonic Poles living in Lithuania, not your 'hobby homeland' Germany, :)

>Josh: Hey, I have no kids, yet, and I doubt I' m more than approx. 5 yrs older than you are<

Lazy boy!

Papa

P.S. Take your time with the answer, think it over, make it informative and entertaining, you have lots of time. Majówka starts! Cheers.

@ Forlana

I will be impolite somewhat now, but - check the facts before you post your drivel here. Your sources are clearly biased or outright misleading, and hence you have no clue what you are posting about. Again, I am about the hard facts, and not opinions.

Lithuanian MP Gintaras Songaila, known for his anti-Polish views, statements and actions, was just expelled from the ruling party of Lithuanian Christian Democrats.

Songaila was the author the most radical law on education, which virtually is aimed at closing down half of Polish schools in LT.

The reason why he was expelled was his opposition to Lithuanian Conservative Party forming an alliance with Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania party, to jointly rule in LT capital city - Vilnius. This opposition made the alliance impossible and both parties are now in opposition.

forming a Coalition with ilnius branch of the Conservative Party of its intention to create a coalition in the capital of the Electoral Action of Poles in Lithuania (EAPL). In the opinion of observers, this was one of the reasons for conservatives to remain in opposition.

Josh, even taking W-Post schadenfreude into account, what's what is on the other side of >upper limit of "human development" < is not yet clear. In the past wars (Germany against France or the whole rest) reseted the upper limit. What will happen today when Germany has gone multi-Kulti and pacifist? Horror, horror!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europeans-shift-long-held-view-that-...

>Josh_01: In the case of Lithuania, that would mean to omits the French cedille, the German umlauts, the various Polish special signs, but to include the embattled letter "w".<

That would mean Americanisation of ages-old continent. We are not buiding something new from a scratch. Why people should people living in one spot, change the names for the sake of governmental clerks comfort, just because a new set of clerks has arrived in their neighbourhood after the war they didn't incite? Not even the communists went that far in their will 'to standarize'.

>Josh_01: Apart from the spelling issue: would you agree, though, that all EU countries shoud treat their historic ("autochthonous") minorities in the same way<

Idealistic but unlikely. But I am on your side here. Do you know that in Germany to this day operates the Nazi Germany bill which delegalized Polish minority?

From your other comments I know you are an American, who reads and trusts Polish edition of Newsweek, so you may check it here

http://www.newsweek.pl/artykuly/sekcje/swiat/niemcy-nie-uznaja-polskiej-...

>Josh_01: Duiring the Cold War, CEE was no "comfortable buffer against the Soviets", but part of the Warsaw Pact<

Red Army stationed in hostile territory, which wasn't a sincere enemy of the West, on the opposite. Without these troops CEE would turn against Soviets in no time. At least in Poland, now-Czech Republic, Hungary, Baltic states (more complicated here due to heavy Soviet-Russian colonisation). Thus it was a buffer for the WE.

>Josh_01: there already was a very considerable extra-European immigration in Western Europe prior to 1989 (millions each of Arabs in France, Pakistanis and Indians in Britain, Turks in Germany, Indonesians in the Netherlands etc.)<

Read attentively please, spares time :)
I said - long-term effects. Like 21 century burning Parisienne suburbs etc. and generally a ticking bomb on own territory.

>he adaption process in CEE during the 1990s and early 2000s wasn' t "fun" at all, as far as I remember (ask your parents!);

Yes, if we talk history it was not fun at all. It is now - ask your children.

>at least the northern half of Western Europe doesn' t regress<

That must be Iceland!

>Josh_01:the very upper limit of "human development" <

No doubt about that. But I think you misunderstood. Probably out of the combative habit (whose toys are nicer show) acquired in other sections of TE blogs...

Miłego! :)

Keista man, I think part of the issues you address may be resolved in the newly created Polish-Lithuanian Dialogue Forum.
Thank you for your good will.

The link is in Polish

http://www.money.pl/archiwum/wiadomosci_agencyjne/pap/artykul/litwa;pows...

Josh, at this or that point of history the names of probably all Poland's neighbours were forcibly polonized. At this and that point of history there were always Polish citizens coming from all our neighbours who polonized themselves voluntarily.
The same applies to Russia, Germany, France and so on. This is part of pan-European history.

Draw a very thick line here.

We are in modern times now. Trying hard to extend one of the longest peace and respect periods Europe has. Certainly the longest in the post nations forming 19th century. Part of this great deal is that Danuta Hübner, has the right to her name in the form she wishes it to have. I don't think she was unable to pre-89. Maybe shortly after 1945 she would have had problems but she was not here there, and when she arrived in this world her name was Młynarska.
Now, your turn. Please try to explain where do you see a link with forced lithuanization taking place in 21-century EU state?

If you are not able to demonstrate that link, I propose we leave that subject, LT and PL will manage to sort it out, and turn to much more interesting one.

>Josh_01: Eastern Europeans were under much more pressure to adapt than Wester Europeans who were in a comfortable position<

It seems reasonable at first sight, but is misleading. CEEuropeans had (and still have) a lot to do. But they are at least psychologically in much better position. While WEuropeans are in shock or will be in shock, that their past isolated prosperity of second half of 20th century is gone. As the ideal, cosy, geopolitical situation they lived in was artificially created by the Cold War. From one side US was taking care of military protection and inspired economical progress. On the other side the CEE was forming a comfortable buffer against the Soviets. And in the middle of those two sides - the long standing effects of extra-European immigration did not affect them yet. To se ne vrati - pane Havranek. CEE is change for good, energy, fun of life it is really easier to bear the positive pressure than the negative one.

I suspect that Grybauskaite and some other Lithuanian politicians really want to turn Lithuania eastwards, back to the known to them corrupt Russian-speaking space that may even pay them for easy awful deeds (just business).
It's sad to see this for me, too. Lithuanians will feel fooled later, but it will be too late.

On the other hand, Poland is not seen as a good strategic partner of Lithuania because it used to pay no attention to Lithuania's direction. Poland is often seen as a country that cared only of Poles in Lithuania and refused to do more according to treaties and plans of strategic partners: there's no link of railways, there's no link of Via Baltica, there's no link of electricity networks. Poland was almost only preoccupied about perfection of Polishness in the South Eastern Lithuania. Poland only made people in that region to rather want to be citizens of Poland than Lithuania. The best Poles possible, better not Lithuania's people at all. Why else did they need to issue Karta Polaka to citizens of Lithuania? Why is Lithuania seen as a backwards Eastern country by Poland? Why else Poland and Poles of Lithuania can't stand -ovskis, -evskis, and not even -ovski, -evski (different from -auskas, -iauskas, -auskis, -iauskis that ethnic Lithuanians with Polonized surnames use to have) in Lithuanian passports, but can perfectly live with the same in Latvian passports and even with -ofsky, -efsky in American passports? Why there is so much of desinformation, ignorance if the countries are such perfect partners? Why Lithuania is nearly never mention as a partner in common Lithuanian-Polish incentives for Eastern partners of the EU?
And then more history, indeed: why Poland demands that Lithuania would talk of Poland only like Poland likes it in Lithuania's history books? Why can't we agree about our recent history after 1918? Why Poland gets mad on Lithuania for not wanting to be on of Poland's outskirts (Kresy) anymore? Why Poland can't see Lithuania as a normal NOT-EXACTLY-POLISH EU nation like it easily sees Latvia and Estonia? Why put salt on the wounds ignorantly from abroad?

In fact, probably Poland helped Lithuania a lot even without doing a lot of what I mentioned as the Lithuanian expectations, even by sheer calling Lithuania a strategic partner sometimes. Likely some Lithuanian politicians themselves tried to keep the relations as bad as possible because they were dumb or bought by Russians.

@Josh: as for now, there is only 1 subject that is taught in Lithuanian in schools for Poles of Lithuania and that subject is the Lithuanian language. More over, I saw the time-table of such a school: for example, 8th year students Poles of Lithuania have 3 weekly lessongs of the Lithuanian language and 5 weekly lessongs of their native language - Polish.

To introduce two other subjects (like history of Lithuania) in Lithuanian to the schools is a crime "against the Polish minority" according to some certain Poles which I would call to ignorant or too nationalistic. Likewise, it's a crime according to them to finally introduce more lessons of Lithuanian language, literature and an equal/same exam of the language as the citizens of Lithuania who go to schools for native Lithuanian-speakers have. The exam for Poles and Russians is now easier, as the Soviet tradition had been that Lithuanians and others had been expected (it was demanded) to speak Russian to people with a different native language than theirs (Russian was the Soviet lingua franca).

@ Forlana: It's Seimas in Lithuanian, not Sejmas. If you demand us to care about every Polish letter... ;)

>Just saying "you are wrong, but I don' t have time to tell you why" is a bit cheap.<

Not as much cheap as writing nonsense, which you _exactly_ know is nonsense, being quite en currant in the matter, and expecting me to explain it all over again.

Example? Look at the spelling -

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danuta_H%C3%BCbner

And now, would you try and explain what has the fully German spelling of the name of Polish lady (de domo Młynarska) with forced lithuanization of the names of Poles being autochtones in Lithuania?

>I frankly think all Central and Eastern European countries needed and still need time to adapt to the post 89/90 realities, including Poland, and issues like this one are a good example for the onging adaption process (although we are at its tail end now)<

Yes, that is partly true. Party, because you miss a large part of Europe, called western EU, which has to adapt to post-1989 reality as well. If you were an European, which unfortunately you are not, I would say don't throw stones while you are living in the house made of glass. But you are American, so there's abosolutely no problems of this kind there...

Have a good afternoon! :)

>Josh:I "admitted" earlier that I find the recent Polish excitement over the issue a bit articifical<

Don't be misled by the abundant TE comments section. There's no exitement in the media and officially. It is a marginal subject, and that's the way it should be. LT still needs more time, should be treated with respect and mildly. And that is happening. Differentiate the external provocators concentrated at making PL-LT relations or any relations inside EU tense.
Sorry no time for a monstrous discussion to point the facts of general background you are slightly wrong about. Maybe someone else will, if you don't want to get into the matter on your own.

Btw - do you notice, as usual when you comment a slightly accented 'interest of Germany' shows.

I have no idea why you should take sides, maybe because you see Europe, 'through Germany', most of all. Happens to some Americans , nothing bad as long as they are eager to notice Europe - and EU is not just Germany. Some however get 'fed up' with the messengers, like you with me, before they realize that.

Have a good day and till next time.

Josh_01, no problem outsiders commenting - that's what the comments section is for. (Apart from serving as ideas reservoir for TE staff). It is fun to read impressions, prejudice, hagiography or enlightning insights from the outsiders on my own country and it's closest neighbours and friends - about our international close millieu. I am sure you have the same fun while following probably your prime interest articles and discussions - about US, Canada or Mexico. And no problem you've made it long. The problem is that you slightly miss the point and some facts. Past TE articles provide thorougful coverage of both sides' point of view, exactly 'for the outsiders' version, if you have time.

Being neither Polish nor Lithuanian (an essential prerequisite, evidently), I have some difficulty grasping the essence of this problem. I see two countries almost sabre-rattling over use of the letter "w". Surely the Lithuanians are within their rights in lithuanianizing the spelling of Polish, Swedish or Chinese names in internal dosuments. Don't the Poles do likewise with some foreign names in Polish-language texts? This is too ridiculous for words! One would think that both parties had more important matters to expend their energies on.

@zerwikaptur, Forlana
Since everything worth saying was said many times already, I just repeat the most important bit of it: mind your own business. Take care of minorities living in Poland. Lithuania is a foreign country and it will take care of it's minorities.

@mikeinwarsaw

I will respond to those parts of your post that are at least remotely related to the topic in question.

"Back in 1944/5 the RC Church encouraged the Polish speaking peasantry to stay in Lithuania rather than to emigrate to Poland, quite unlike their counterparts in what is now the western Ukraine."
Per information from http://www.republika.pl/sciesielski/losy/repat.html
only around 50% of Poles who wanted to leave Lithuania after the WW2 were allowed to do this by the authorities there. It was not their own choice to stay in that area. I do not know why you scapegoat RC whenever possible and independent from the facts.

"As such therefore, its seen as an enemy within. Much like Germans or Jews, Silesians or Kaszuby are perceived in Poland."
Forlana already showed that such accusations are baseless.

"Bullying of smaller countries by larger ones (Poland has over 10 times the population of Lithuania) is just as unacceptable as bullying of ethnic minorities within countries...."

I see no bullying for the last 20 years, quite the opposite: a very silly faith that Lithuania is a "strategic partner", the faith that has been making the Polish governments turn a blind eye to the discrimination of Poles in Lithuania.

"As to your claiming that I am biased because I have a Lithuanian girlfriend (she happens to be a Polish citizen!) that comment is completely unacceptable."

You brought up this argument in a different post so now it is a fair game to draw conclusions of your bias from that argument which is relevant to your view of the issue (or better say your perception that there is no or little issue).

Dear Sir,

your 'to do' points for LT, even if indeed implemented, would not really help much. The problem of Polish minority's worsened situation would remain.

Worsening of the existing situation of a minority is unheard of in EU or among any befriended neighbours.

What would you say if Poland worsened the situation of German minority, for instance - decreased funding, stripped them of the right to Sejm representation without reaching the 5% threshold it now enjoys - to match it with the standards Polish minority in Germany has/has not.

On the Polish side it is the mainstream, balanced politicians, not the extremists, who are behind the present official, more demanding position. I am not saying this position couldn't be a bit smarter from the very beginning, but certainly it is not bullying. The only announced action by Donald Tusk is a will to INcrease funding for LT minority in Poland. Incidentally, Donald Tusk is a member of Kashubian minority, and is still enjoying great symapthy among voters - at the end of 4 years in chair of PM! Among the most popular Poles, including politicians, are many non-Catholic Poles, to name just two - Jerzy Buzek or Adam Małysz. We have black MP, German MP independent of German minoirty (from PiS!). For anyone who does know Poland and is not for some reason blinkered or has other, hidden, agenda, it is obvious that in spite of hard history times behind, history which inspired 'defensive nationalism' we have retained openess and liberalism. It grows though lives side by side with contracting xenophobic option.

It is this open, liberal and deeply pro-EU Poland which is complaining about Lithuania mistreating and being unhonest towards her neighbour.

Accusing Poland presently ruled by steady majority of liberals, with the hardcore nationalists and populist (LPR, Samoobrona) excluded from Sejm , in times when their xenophobic and populist counterparts' in western, souther and northern EU have so much success sounds like a bad joke. National Front in France, Norther Lega in Italy, Freedom Party in NL, Christoph Blocher's party in Switzerland, True Finns, 'Democrats' of Sweden , Danish People Party - they are more and more shaping the respective countries policies towards minorities. In Poland it is still firmly PO, centre and liberal party.

The core of problem is not Radosław Sikorski outspokeness. While I am afraid (and hope) on the other side it is the minority of extremists of Gintaras Songaila type which somehow overtook the minds of LT Sejmas members and outbalanced the much more numerous and sensible Andrius Kubilius' wing.

Since you know both Polish and Lithuanian, you are perfectly aware of the different ways the whole issue is reported in the mass media. To put it elegantly there's no anti-Lithuanian hysteria in the Polish press.

I am afraid it is not just Poland who is loosing a friend, and a loyal partner, it is unfortunately a wider process inspired externally. I don't feel we would ever change our pro-Western orientation with most of our trade exchange being done inside EU, and some 25% with Germany, which is the greatest foreign investor in Poland. The greatest foreign investor in Lithuania is still Russian Federation. This is magically reflected in these comments section here too, by the provocative tones, accusations and bile. Lithuanians are given a mirage of joining the scarcly populated Nordics, somewhere there behind the sea, _in place_ (not _next to_) of a firm friend, whose stance and potential does make a difference for LT's future, which is Poland. In effect Lithuania risks landing back in the Russian sphere, I am afraid.

Regards from Warszawa