Eastern approaches

Ex-communist Europe

Family squabble

Poland and Lithuania, round 154

Apr 7th 2011, 16:02 by E.L.

I HAVE just been in Washington, DC, partly with my think-tank hat on (particularly looking at Nordic-Baltic security co-operation, which is mushrooming) and partly nosing around to find the latest American thinking about the "region". I spoke at an off-the-record conference for American government officials last week, which brought together people from every department and agency dealing with Russia and the central and east European region (an idea other governments should copy).

My talk was about "resets, resentments and reassurance", focusing on the differing role that history plays in attitudes towards Russia. I started by pointing out that the last ten years had been a huge success (expansion of NATO and the European Union, all countries surviving the financial crisis) and that Russian hard power and mischief-making in the region was, on balance, diminishing. The Georgian war was not a great success from the Kremlin's point of view. I looked mainly at the role of history in Russian-CEE relations (ignoring Ukraine, Belarus and central Asia for reasons of space).

My rough taxonomy was that the ex-Yugoslav countries have broadly neutral or favourable attitudes to Russia, as do Albania and Bulgaria. (In Bulgaria, Russia is seen as a genuine historic liberator, from Ottoman rule, and communism is equated more with modernisation than retardation, unlike in most of of the rest of the region). The next category took in four countries where Russia has more or less managed a "reset": the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia. The main breakthrough here has been to stop peddling lies (eg, on Katyn), which allows relations to be polite, if not outright cordial.

The final category is what I call "still bleeding": Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova and Romania. For different reasons, history is still a live issue in these countries. Some tentative steps towards historical reconciliation have started with Latvia (highlighted by President Valdis Zatlers during his recent trip to Washington). But nothing substantive so far.

My main editorial point was that the "reset" in countries such as Poland has to be balanced with reassurance to the smaller countries. America got this wrong initially after its own reset with Russia, but has scrambled back to a position where relations with the CEE countries are pretty good (the consultation with new NATO allies about force posture, for example, has been exemplary).

I am not convinced that Poland is getting this right, though. Regular readers will know that I keep a close eye on this issue. The latest twist to the story is Lithuania's school reform, which the local Polish minority has greeted with howls of protest (cynics would say that they greet everything with howls of protest).

I wrote in depth about Poland's foreign policy here, and about the latest flare-up here for European Voice:

Few on the Polish side want to give Lithuania the benefit of the doubt, given the Vilnius authorities' lamentable foot-dragging on other issues (such as spelling rules, and restitution of land to its lawful pre-war owners in the then Polish Wilno).

Nerves are raw on the Lithuanian side too: even quite reasonable Lithuanians feel they are being bullied by Poland; that their own national identity is not respected by Warsaw; that the local Polish minority leadership's fondness for calling up support from across the border is a low tactic and disloyal to the Lithuanian state. Some Lithuanians also feel that emotional and even personal considerations are at play on the Polish side. A recent speech by Radek Sikorski, Poland's foreign minister, in which he requested the Lithuanians not to pass the education law, may have had the opposite effect: swinging some lawmakers into voting for it in order to show that they will not kowtow to pressure from Warsaw.

Outsiders find all this infuriating. But the Lithuanian-Polish family squabble has deep roots. It will take much effort and clever diplomacy to solve. Not much sign of that so far.

That provoked furious emails from both sides. A senior Lithuanian official has apparently told his staff that I am a Russian agent. For the record, it is true that I have publicly stated that I am a polonophile; I do speak Polish; Mr Sikorski is a friend of mine; and I was once awarded the Bene Merito medal by the Polish government (without my foreknowledge, and I turned it down).

I also make no secret of the fact that I speak Lithuanian (badly), have received a Lithuanian state award (in 1994, before I joined The Economist's staff), used to live in Vilnius, and have some close friends in the upper reaches of politics there too.

However, by the standards of some supposedly impartial journalism on the issue, my approach is pure milquetoast. Take this commentary (masquerading as a news story) from the Baltic Times, a weekly newspaper that—again, full disclosure—has some roots in the Baltic Independent, which I used to part-own and run. I particularly like the following, assessing Mr Sikorski's expresion of disappointment with the reform.

Sikorski spoke on March 30 in an inarticulate manner, commenting on the news about Grybauskaite’s signing of the law. If some French, German or Dutch foreign minister, after too much wine, beer or marijuana, would interfere into the educational matters of Belgium, he or she would be forced to resign immediately. However, Sikorski, although he behaves as if he is using all those three substances together, is still in his post.

This one will run and run, sadly. What was particularly troubling during my trip was to find that the Polish-Lithuanian spat is now under discussion in Washington, where, in the current climate, busy people prefer America's allies to bring solutions, not problems. Exasperation seems to be equally divided: Lithuania recently broke new ground in managing to be rude to two visiting senators (probably the most pro-Lithuanian people in Congress). But America wants Poland to carry more of the leadership burden in the region, and that means dealing with small countries as well as big ones.

Readers' comments

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Udoit

Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia used to live on those lands for thousand of years.Chzechz&slovakia abomination come to be as a result of defeat of Huns in WW1.No country has god given rights to be safe in its borders.If another more powerful tribe got muscle power and wits to conquer it I say go for it.I dont see much sympathy for mexican being kicked out of California Texas and anything in between as a result of 1848 war.

not Cameron

For those who are obsessed with ethnicity issues - actually, the quoted article in the Baltic Times is written by cosmopolitan and liberal Lithuanian Pole. For views of more patriotic-minded Lithuanian Pole look at www.pogon.lt

Re: Polish Wilno. On Oct. 9, 1920, despite the Suwalki (now in Poland) truce agreement between Lithuania and Poland of Oct. 7 imposed on Poland by the West (the truce was due to take power on Oct. 10), some of the Polish army troops claiming to be ‘the Lithuanian rebels,’ according to secret instructions from Warsaw, entered Vilnius creating the pro-Polish puppet state of Middle Lithuania, which joined Poland in 1922 and belonged to it until 1939, when the troops of Lithuania marched into Vilnius, which was the capital city of Lithuania for many ages.

guest-wlejnss

Actually, the problem is not wether did lithuania assure sufficient education for minorities or didn't. The problem is in Poland itself. It is common to keep the imperialistic ambitions among polish (especially toward Lithuanians, as they were annexed for several centuries), therefore Polish wait for any possible pretexts for conflicts to set off. Usually lithuanians just laugh and say nothing, as they feel themselves a bit more diplomatic then the other side...

Germanambassador

http://www.economist.com/user/Atlas21/comments

Final "Off-the-topic" Point: I think that if we remained constructive in our dialogue, we as a small few might be able to understand each other better and therefore put forth a foundation of understanding across territorial and cultural lines.

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I completely agree with you and this would be the solution for Europe and a more peaceful world.

But you should not forget that Britain as has been since ever will do anything to increase tensions and contrasts in Europe.
A peaceful Europe is strictly against the political ends of Britain and they prefer a mess as they have it in Northern Ireland since ever.

And if French politics eve will act on a level of equal nations, I have my doubts as well.

So Europe is for me a lost case and Germany finally should draw its conclusions.
You can not create a Union of nations where a majority still is regarding an other member of the same union as their worst and eternal enemies.

After all those many years we just have to take notice that the tensions, contrasts and hostility in some nations have been increasing.
Germany has been the most hated country in Europe and this will never change.

All public polls ove Europe give a clear and strict confirmation that Germans are extremely hated in many European countries and the leading nation is Britain.

Germanambassador

http://www.economist.com/user/Forlana/comments

I am sure the newest polls you cite must be extremely correct. And your personal experience simply confirms the trend. Shortly after WWII Germans were adored in all the countries you mention, and in Russia, which you still felt living there pior to 1989. Unfortunately since that time Germany's image began to change, hitting the present low you cite.

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Well I am only referring only to the polls of the last 10 years in those countries and in all those countries Germans are extremely hated.
Especially in all English speaking countries Germans and Germany are the most hated people since ever.
After WW II it was of course the same but there is no difference at all between the hatred of 1945 and today.
It is obvious that the hatred in all English speaking countries and first of all in Britain and America has become worse as it ever was in 1945.
Only the Soviet Union- regarding real humanity- was treating the Germans since ever quite different to that English speaking hatemongers.
So I only can be grateful to the Soviet Union where I never was discriminated in regard of my German background.
In Russia I never heard any bad word about the Germans because it was strictly forbidden.
The very first time when I got insulted the meanest and nastiest way that was in 1989 in Berlin when I met the first time British and Americans.
I was nothing but shocked that people can offend other people only on behalf of their nationality.
Anything I ever heard about the Americans and the British during my time in Red Army came really true.
And this was the reason why I stayed in the Red Army another few years because I was sure that I had to defend the Soviet Union against these hooligans.

Nothing has changed since 1945 except the fact that the hatred in Holland, Britain the USA or Canada is even worse!
Stalin the great leader was giving Germany the biggest chance of independance already in 1953 just like Austria got it .
It was a generous offer protected by the Soviet Union and Russia since ever kept its word while all other nations broke their promises just as it comes up to their mind:)
Having accepted the geneous offer of Stalin, Germany would not be completely isolated in Europe surrounded by hostile and aggressive neighbours.
Germany made a bad deal because they relied on the words of English speaking people.
For English speaking people it is the utmost pleasure if thye can cheat the Germans.

Atlas21

Two Points:

1. Germanambassador and Omniprescient: clearly the two of you are quite articulate and intellectually capable. However, it is easy for any reader of your posts to gloss over those two admirable qualities and focus on the passive aggressive loathe you exert on Forlana. It seems the two of you feed off of each others' negativity and poison your comments which do not elevate your positions or the arguement.

2. As a citizen of a country that has issues with both enforcing our laws within ethnic enclaves and also trying to not dissuade these folks from becoming citizens; I find it both curious and regrettable that the ethnically Polish (yet legally Lithuanian) citizens are so reticent to assimilate with their neighbors. Furthermore it does not promote the government's cause by trying to make taboo the ethnic identity of these minorities.

Final "Off-the-topic" Point: I think that if we remained constructive in our dialogue, we as a small few might be able to understand each other better and therefore put forth a foundation of understanding across territorial and cultural lines.

Forlana

>Germanambassador: According to the newest polls in Britain, Poland, France, Holland and the USA, Canada - Germany is the most hated country in the world as well as each German is regarded in all these countries above as an eternal enemy.<

I am sure the newest polls you cite must be extremely correct. And your personal experience simply confirms the trend. Shortly after WWII Germans were adored in all the countries you mention, and in Russia, which you still felt living there pior to 1989. Unfortunately since that time Germany's image began to change, hitting the present low you cite.

Cheesus Crust

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/28441/
"Piotr Tyma, leader of the Ukrainian community in Poland, Poland’s Belarusian MP Eugeniusz Czykwin and Poland’s German MP Ryszard Galla told Lietuvos Rytas (the April 9 issue) that the situation of education of ethnic minorities in their language is terrible and almost non-existent due to a chauvinistic atmosphere prevailing in Poland’s society. They said that Poland, instead of spending tens of millions of zlotys per year on propaganda among foreign Poles, would better start to care about the needs of its own minorities. Poland’s Ukrainian and Belarusian leaders stated that they are disgusted with obstacles to build monuments to victims of ethnic cleansing perpetrated in Poland by Polish guerillas of WWII and Polish troops after WWII, according to Lietuvos Rytas. Those leaders of ethnic minorities in Poland stated that they can only dream about the Lithuania-style land ownership restitution, according to the article in Lietuvos Rytas."

Germanambassador

http://www.economist.com/user/Forlana/comments

Exactly. Germany is totally autarchic and self-sufficient country. It is logical then that she has never ever worked neither officially nor unofficialy to improve her image abroad.

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Why should we give it any more try? We know it is useless and so we better skip it.
According to the newest polls in Britain, Poland, France, Holland and the USA, Canada - Germany is the most hated country in the world as well as each German is regarded in all these countries above as an eternal enemy.
So why invest any energy to change the minds of completely hostile countries and nations?

Germans have learned to deal with it and as you see we could deal with it since more than 60 years.
If the rest of Europe likes us or not I think most of us do not carte at all.
Most hate us and we know that very well and why should we change their opinion towards us, knowing that you never can do anything against bias or stereotypes?

So I tink it is okay this way as it is.

Quite different to all the nations above I never heard or felt any bad remark about the Germans in Russia although I was born in Kaliningrad, grew up in Kaliningrad and joined the Red Army.
In the contrary with my German background I always felt a very high respect by the Russians and I always felt very welcome by them.
I never was discriminated:) as it is usual in all Western countries.
Just my experience.

Forlana

Germanambassador in his best shape. Thanks for coming! Of course you are totally correct. In some points you are even more correct than correct.

>Germanambassador: But in German it is quite uninteresting what the people think about the Germans<

Exactly. Germany is totally autarchic and self-sufficient country. It is logical then that she has never ever worked neither officially nor unofficialy to improve her image abroad. This image is unimportant because she is able to both defend herself on her own, and prolong her good job as a Miele washing machines and other stuff exporter without any cooperation with other folk. It is also a well-know trait of the German men especially that they absolutely don't care how they are looked upon by the others :)

Germanambassador

http://www.economist.com/user/Forlana/comments

And we are really thrilled by this dramatic change of your ways.

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As you know I just was stationed as a member of the victorious and unbeatable Red Army in 1989 in Eastern Germany and so I know how things can work.
It would have cost us less than a glimpse to change anything if we only would have wanted.

But in German it is quite uninteresting what the people think about the Germans because everybody knows how you think about us.

So it is more than sure that no German would ever lift a finger for one of you:)
You do not want to forget and we do not want to forget and so we should leave the whole situation just as it is because it makes no sense to discuss about nature given situations.
We take notice that Kascynski says what each Pole thinks!e
And in a certain way I am rather grateful to him because he is clearing the situation between the two countries.
So if you believe it or not Kascynski is rather popular in Germany in a certain way because he says what most Germans like to hear.

Forlana

Germanambassador- wszelki duch Pana Boga chwali!, well, well, well, welcome to the East-of-Elbe TE comments section :)

>Germanambassador for sure never will lift a finger for Poland.<

And we are really thrilled by this dramatic change of your ways.

Germanambassador

Tell me any neighbour-country of Poland with which they ever get along?:)
The Poles have problems with everybody in the world and even their American friends meanwhile find them rather obscure.
It is just a matter of natural impossibility to have any kind of a relationship to Poland without having an utmost stress:)
Therefore they are more than isolated in Europe and they definitively do not have any friends.

Perhaps Mr.Putin will tell them a lesson some day and the rest of Europe won't lift even a finger:)

The Germans for sure never will lift a finger for Poland.

Cheesus Crust

@Forlana
Poland has to understand that it has nothing to do with Polish speaking population of Lithuania. They are not ethnic Poles. Many of them are not using Polish language at home but rather "Wilenska mowa", that looks for me as a dialect of Belorus language. Lithuanian state failed to integrate them into everyday life. Well, more accurate is to say it "delegated" the task to "strategic partner". The decision was bad, but another option was even worse. No wonder, that now these people act as Poland's citizens, not Lithuania's.

Lithuania are claiming these people back now. They are not ethnic Poles, they don't want to become ethnic Lithuanians. They are confused, they don't know who they are. But they are "tuteyshy" - locals. They are Litwiny na Litwie. Another kind of Lithuanians, but not Poles. This formula would be acceptable to the ethnic Lithuanian society. It would be acceptable for many "Poles" in Lithuania. Well, pan Tomaševski and his supporters in Warsaw would be in trouble.

This is how I see the currrent situation. As you see no Sudets mentioned.

Forlana

Ecoe, great way to discuss! Everything with what you don't agree is just 'emotional mumbojumbo'.
Which you feel obliged to uncover. While 'absolute majority of Lithuanians seeing the situation as the pre-WWII Sudeten Germans issue' is rational and cold, and needs no reprimend.
Congratulations :/

Speaking of emotions - yes there are emotions among that few Poles who think about Lithuania at all. Few, really few - it was explained by Cegoarch very well, though refuted by omniprecient without giving it a though, just the way you refute what I said now. It is not bad will of Poles, just the reality - Lithuania is getting out of society's collective mind really quick. If that's what 'your' collective wanted, because you are fed up with us - your enemies, you may be glad. My emotions are a mixture of disappointment and surprise... I was one of the naive ones, sincerely believing Lithuania IS friendly, normal EU member, and in some way special neighbour of ours. Now that we have the emotion problem explained you can try and start reasonable, no-mumbojumbo discussion of the topic :)
Sekmes!

ecoe

Thanks for the links, Forlana.

So as I understand from the article, 3.9 doesn't have job because of the language issues, and 33.7 because the wages are too low? Even though Vilnius city has the highest wages in the country so Vilnius region Poles shouldn’t have problems with that?

Other part of your post is some emotional mumbojumbo, so I will skip that so we could discuss the topic reasonably.

Forlana

ecoe, omniprescient - the stance 'there is no problem, it is all ivented by the Poles' is undefendable, sorry.

ecoe, only 3.9 per cent of Poles in Lithuania indicate unfamiliarity with Lithuanian language as a reason of unemployment. The young generation of Poles in Lithuania speak fluent Lithuanian as a rule. I am afraid your authorities are simply looking for a stick to hit the dog.

You may like to read this note
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,81048,9333134,Litwa__Fundacja__...

automated (and terrible) translation into English:

http://bit.ly/dRSMga

I am surprised you can't find data about the petition.
http://www.msz.gov.pl/Foreign,Ministry,statement,on,the,signing,of,the,E...

>Cheese Crust: ...situation of Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia before WW2/.../ Absolute majority of Lithuanians see this situation exactly as described above.<

Though I think you are a troll, I will make an exception and answer. Even in more than one way, as it is a special answer to someone I see as a troll, someone deliberately working on making Polish-Lithuanian relations worse, in the tiny scale of these comments section of TE.

My three answers:

1. à la omniprescient: they are hysteric,

2. à la ecoe: it's good I know some Lithuanians who see it more clearly,

3. if indeed an absolute majority of Lithuanians see this situation exactly as in pre-WWII Sudeten, than Lithuania has a real, deep problem. Society totally misunderstanding the reality of the present day makes wrong choices. Prerequisite to prosperity (both political and economical) is correct recognition of threats and chances, enemies and friends.

ecoe

Forlana,

Actually I couldn’t find any information about it. Can you send me link?

And did You know, that from TOP 4 regions with highest unemployment rates are Šalčininkai and Vilnius regions (where the majority of inhabitants are Polish, Mažeikiai region and Ignalina region (where most of the Russian speaking minorities live). With Vilnius region is the worst situation, because it is close to Vilnius city which has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country and it is possible to live in Vilnius region and to go to work in Vilnius city. One of the reasons is that Polish minority speak poor Lithuanian (Waldemar Tomashewski including) so it is hard for them to find job in the regions where Lithuanian language is required.
O you, as Tomashewski, also suggest, that we are the immigrants in Lithuania so we all should “integrate”(=learn to speak Polish)?

Cheesus Crust

@Forlana

I repost a part of Tomas Marny comment:
"...situation of Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia before WW2: a large group of people affiliated by language with the (most) numerous European nation considered themselves more important / better that other inhabitants of the country because of this fact and their unfriendliness to the country they lived in lead to their betrayal of the country of their citizenships, war and subsequently their forced transfer out of the country."

Absolute majority of Lithuanians see this situation exactly as described above. I would add, that this position of part of Polish speaking Lithuanians is promoted (I would say even invented) by Poland state. Is that how Poland understands regional leadership?

About Eastern approaches

Eastern approaches deals with the economic, political, security and cultural aspects of the eastern half of the European continent. It incorporates the long-running "Europe.view" weekly column. The blog is named after the wartime memoirs of the British soldier Sir Fitzroy Maclean.

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