Russia and NATO

There is a saying "Only Russians can change Russia" and I believe it is true. Until recently the Russian leaders (whatever they were) were not able to even think of accepting the force of the evolution - not the biological one ;) the evolution of the Russian people and their culture. If you can look past the veil of ideology, tradition and all the rest you can see them all going to extreme lengths to prevent changes after making some of their own. And those changes they pursued were only aimed at strengthening their positions in power - hardly qualifies as cultural evolution. Now Russia is different, it is true that the power is still in the hands of people for whom democracy on home soil is a dirty word, but lets be serious - to force democracy in Russia is like inserting the fuse into a bomb and igniting it. It happened before and it will happen again if it is forced upon Russia. They have their own way, being nationalists in their marrow they will not accept it from outside, but they will find their way.

Am I wrong? I think not, Putin is not your fellow democrat, even Medvedev is probably just acting (who knows - it does not matter in the end), not to mention the assortment of other powers of importance and mafia tied to all this. A democracy as we know it in the west will only ruin the balance they managed and all will be for nothing. On the other hand nor Putin nor many of the others who control the politics is as narrow-minded as the good old communist aparatchiks and leaders. They also need no more to play good comrades or stick to idiotic philosophies, but the most important piece of the puzzle is the fact that they have accepted that they can and should keep their power by smart (as possible) and less invasive methods. They will not resort to mass violence on their own people (non-Russians excluded), they will not condemn the wish for better life (they will just ignore it), they will not treat their own fellow Russians as guilty of some nondescript crime - ever again as long as they are in power. You may laugh at it, but Russians have this kind of freedom for the first time ever, the acts that outrage us are nothing compared to what they've seen for centuries. So, basically the people in power managed to fortify their position with virtually no violence by Russian standards and they embraced the evolution and will follow it albeit carefully and in small strides. More wealth spread through more of the population will require more freedom and, at least for now, giving it in small doses doesn't seem to be harmful for those in power and they will just let it happen when the time comes.

I have some roots in Russia, true, severed more than a century ago when my ancestors were part of those attempts for impossible changes - those early revolutions that led nowhere. Even my Russian is rusty, but I can still trace the predatory pride of the Russian culture in me. If you ask me they should have a cat for a national animal and not a bear, the cats change their habits, but never because someone else wants them to.

If you are in a mood to play verbal games with Russian definitions as to who should be described as 'spies', 'scouts', 'intelligence officers', etc. read a Moscow Times article here:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/when-spies-become-intellig...

Unique documentaries on the alliance of Russian and German Fascism are here:

http://www.gulag.ipvnews.org/article20061225.php

In their first overseas journey (financed by the Kremlin) the "presidents" of Abkhazia and South Ossetia will start next week their official visits to Nicaragua and Venezuela - two countries that have recognized the Putin-created republics' independence.

The task for Sergei Bagapsh and Eduard Kokoity is to conclude friendship and cooperation agreements with the two countries.

The delegations reportedly consists both of government officials and Abkhazian businessmen. The presidents will sign agreements on friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance, as well as trade cooperation deals and a visa-free travel agreement.

Sounds like the "mutual assistance" part is the most important objective. The details as to what assistance Abkhasia and South Ossetia may be able to render remain confidential.

What do the Russians themselves think about the present Russian state ?

In an interview posted on Kasparov.ru, Tatyana Vorozheykina, a teacher at the Moscow Higher School of Social and Economic Sciences, argues that the Russian state at the present time is “in fact a private corporation for the servicing of the private interests of a narrow group of people” (www.kasparov.ru/material.php?id=4C35C34EC2C52).

According to Vorozheykina ... “everyone knows these people. They come from one city, from one agency, from one dacha cooperative” – an obvious reference to the Petersburg mafia headed by Vladimir Putin.

“And the essential quality of this arrangement of power is one involving the translation of orders, ideas and opinions from the top to the bottom” according to Vorozheykina.

The notion that political life consists of “bosses” speaking to “fools” is “the essence of Russian power.” Moreover, “this is a dead end in civilizational and human relations and in economics as well because such an individual cannot be the carrier of modernization … In unfreedom, innovations will not multiply.”

Hard to disagree with such clear thinking. There are, of course, some lutra-nationalistic Russians, a few even post here, who simply don't get it. Let's hope maybe the next generation will get it.

@Joe the Kid

The photo in question represents a historical fact involving your Russia and its closest allies of 1939-41. There is nothing silly about this historical alliance, indeed many facts associated with this alliance were tragic. You and your ultra-patriotic nationalists have tried to "explain" it as a case of "Russia re-gaining its lost territories". For Russians it was an unforgettable day of glory.

Soon after this historic parade thousands of your trusted KGB agents sent from Moscow were busy arresting tens of thousands of suspected "enemies of the people", 'capitalist agents', and the like and fully loaded freight trains were on the way to remote Siberian destinations. Meanwhile, other Soviet freight trains, fully loaded with manganese, tungsten and other raw materials as well as refined fuel were on their way to Berlin, Hamburg and other German destinations to support Nazi war campaign in the West.

As to the advertising, you are not supposed to focus your eyes at some advertising material that may be inappropriate for your age. Most media, both digital and print, use 'stimulating' advertising to attract attention. My advice: take a sheet of paper and cover up the advertising. :)))

Dido, seems like you are up to the same thing - posting these silly pictures and videos of an old event that took place many many years ago. Seems like you can't just let go of Nazism and Communism. By the way, would you be so kind NOT to post links with not so appropriate materials (nudity). It only damages your credibility and it is not safe to view such links at work. Post something from a legit source. Thank you.

LaContra wrote:

"But surely there is more to the possibilities of Russian-West relations than just isolation or conflict?"

Of course. I advocate treating Russia with the respect it deserves. We shouldn't try to humiliate it or to actively harm it, that would be counter-productive.

On the other hand, we must not appease it. This never worked and it never will; Russia will simply see any Western appeasement policy as a sign of weakness and as an opportunity to be exploited. Therefore, our dealings with this country must be strictly on quid pro quo basis, provided that the core values of NATO/EU remain non-negotiable. Russia has simply no right to dictate foreign and security policy to countries like Latvia or Poland. NATO must not appear to be willing to "sacrifice" the interests of these countries just to get a deal on Iran or DPRK. That would send a clear signal to Moscow that it still has a chance of recovering its position in Eastern and Central Europe.

Václav Havel once said that the chief problem with Russia is that it doesn't remember well where its borders are. Let's keep reminding it.

A historic precedent in support of Russia joining NATO has been recorded in this photo of a joint military parade taken in Brest Litovsk on Sept. 22, 1939. The Comrades in Arms salute their victorious troops marching by after defeating their common opponent... Enjoy !

http://durdom.in.ua/uk/main/photo/photo_id/15460.phtml#main_photo

Joe the Kid wrote: "Let's leave the matter of deciding where to have military exercises to the Russian General staff, Ok?"

Why not leave it to the Italian Mafia and their Russki counterparts ?
They know how to stage exercises to 'neutralise' enemies, don't they ?

Didi writes: "Maybe the Russian General staff should plan their exercises on their military bases, lets say somewhere just east of the Ural mountains." ----- Let's leave the matter of deciding where to have military exercises to the Russian General staff, Ok?

No one said Russia is the only country holding military exercises. Why don't you wake up. Exercises can be defensive or offensive. Maybe the Russian General staff should plan their exercises on their military bases, lets say somewhere just east of the Ural mountains.

As to invasions happening while Russia has been holding military exercises, the invasion of Georgia is the latest example. The Soviet history provides plenty of others.

And your reference to "different things of that nature" must mean you know of "mutual interests" between the Italian Mafia and their Russki counterparts. How is the business these days ?

Dido, you need to keep in mind that Russia is not the only country that holds military exercises, and I think it is very hypocritical to call Russian military exercises as a threat, while calling West's exercises as the ones for peaceful purposes. I do not recall any invasions happening while Russia has been holding military exercises. Do you?

On those same bases, many current members (Turkey, Greece, Poland, Italy, Baltics) do not qualify to be members as well. It is not just about soccer, but about energy and different things of that nature. You should know that.

Oh, sure, I can readily envisage some prominent football (soccer) players from Brazil and Venezuela, maybe even from Italy, playing for the Moscow Dynamo but beyond that any mutual "friendship" is and will remain declaratory at best. Brazil has its own 'sphere of influence' to worry about and doesn't need Russia to mess up its multilateral relations. Italy's frienship is rather limited to expanding the Russian market for Italian-made shoes and Italian wines as well as attracting more young Russians to spend their $$$millions in Italian nightclubs.

(OK, I stand to be corrected if there are some Italian Mafia interests I know nothing about.)

Besides, this article deals with Russia and NATO and I am not aware of any plans to expand NATO's membership into South Atlantic which presumably would require changing its name to North and South Atlantic Treaty Organization (NSATO).

On that basis, by the way, Russia does not really qualify for NATO unless Murmansk is considered an Atlantic port.

I believe this type of confrontation would be suicidal for both Russia and West; otherwise, West wouldn't have an issue annihilating Russia in order to get an access to its vast energy resources. And we all know that wars in 21st century are about controling resources. Russia has friends, in S. America, and not just Venezuela and Nicaragua, but Brazil as well; friends in EU - France, Italy, Spain. To say that Russia has a few friends is an uneducated understatement, which shows a lack of knowledge of current situation and events.

Victor_D wrote: "Any military confrontation with the West would be suicidal for Russia, even if nuclear weapons weren't used in the end.
In my view, Russia is all about posturing and attention-seeking."

You are absolutely right. I might add that it would be even more suicidal if nuclear weapons were used.

But in strategic terms the issue would not be limited to NATO forces just destroying major Russian military assets, which can be done efficiently, but what would follow next. A simple replacement of some former KGB operators in the Kremlin with others is not the answer.

There is no Western consensus on the shape and scope of a post-conflict political "perestroika" in what today is known as the Russian Federation. This territorial monster cannot be forever left intact given the ethnic, cultural and religious differences among the population and clearly demonstrated cetrifugal forces in several regions (e.g. Caucasus, Tatarstan, etc.) As well as, of course, the interests and long term ambitions of Russia's Asian neighbours cannot be ignored. The 1,500 million Chinese will not just go away.

Thus Russian posturing with an occasional military training exercise and/or a UN Security Council speech should be seen for what it is. Russia has few if any friends (other then such 'powers' as Nicaragua, Cuba or Abkhasia) and its diplomatic manouvers with respect to Iran or North Korea are rather limited. Its major interests is in preserving and expanding foreign markets for oil and gas on the one hand and for some armaments on the other. For now at least the rules of the game seem to offer mutual advantages.

What Contra said, we must obey the law whether it is favorable or not. If the West obeys the law when it favors them, and disobeys when it does not (invasion of Iraq), then there is no point of having the law; otherwise, the rest of the world will spot the hypocricy and that will not be good.

Victor D

Your first paragraph is essentially correct
But surely there is more to the possibilities of Russian-West relations than just isolation or conflict?
Should we not strive to bridge the gaps in our understanding of each other and each others perspective?

As for your second paragraph...the west cannot ignore Russia regarding Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea, or any other rising hazard..remember Russia has a veto in the Security Council and since the West promotes normative values, rule of law, international legalism and multilateralism, then to ignore Russia and its influence in the Security Council would be to unravel 60 years of US post war progress away from naked balance or power international politics towards a more cooperative global system.

At the risk of sounding reckless, why should we care about Russian military exercises? Russia is not a military threat to NATO, no matter what the Russian "old guard" military leaders believe. Any military confrontation with the West would be suicidal for Russia, even if nuclear weapons weren't used in the end.

In my view, Russia is all about posturing and attention-seeking. The West should not play this game and mind its own interests. Russian cooperation on issues like Iran or Afghanistan isn't that important.