Eastern approaches

Ex-communist Europe

Nagorno-Karabakh

Conflict on ice

Oct 28th 2011, 16:16 by T.J. | SHUSHA AND STEPANAKERT

DURING the late 1980s and early 1990s the conflict between Armenians and Azeris over the Nagorno-Karabkh region was often in the news. Thousands died in fighting; hundreds of thousands fled, or were ethnically cleansed. Nagorno-Karabakh is an Armenian-majority region inside Azerbaijan. During Soviet times it enjoyed autonomy. In September 1991 it declared independence. During the war the region doubled in size, but the problem was not resolved.

 Twenty years later, Nagorno-Karabakh is often called a “frozen conflict”. For most people outside the Caucasus, it is more of a forgotten one.

No Azeris remain in Nagorno-Karabakh. Towns like Aghdam, which were Azeri-dominated before the war but that lie outside the old autonomous region, are in ruins. But there has been some reconstruction in in areas within the pre-war borders. Equally importantly, Nagorno-Karabakh’s 140,000 Armenians have built a small but functioning state. (Not even Armenia, on which the statelet depends, formally recognises its independence.)

Peace talks have ground on for years, but a breakthrough is never made. Nagorno-Karabakh's Armenians want recognition for their breakaway state, but Azerbaijan is unwilling to grant anything more than autonomy. Azeri refugees also want to return to their homes.

The conflict impedes economic development and regional co-operation in the south Caucasus. But Westerners forget it at their peril. In 2005 the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline opened to pump Azerbaijani oil to a terminal in Turkey to lessen dependence on piplines through Russia. The pipeline runs close to the line where Nagorno-Karabakh’s soldiers confront those of Azerbaijan. In the event of a new conflict it could be cut by rocket fire within hours.

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Dante-X

The evil Ottoman to this day is not able to admit the savage genocide perpetrated on Armenians only because they are Christians. The situation for Armenians even in their historic lands is precarious and does not differ from struggles of Serbs in Kosovo, Hindus in Kashmir or Greek in Cyprus.

There are two stages of cohabitation with Muslims. When in minority Muslims rebel and terrorize the infidels and when in majority they subjugate the infidels to ancient Sharia law.

Wim Roffel

The Armenian refugees from Baku and other places spread to Russia, Armenia and elsewhere and integrated. The Azeri refugees from Nagorno-Karabkh are up to the present day being forced to live in refugee camps in Eastern Azerbaijan - to be used as a propaganda tool. It looks like it worked with the Economist: not a word about the Armenian refugees.

Karabakh is Armenia

Dear "Azerbaijani"‎

‎ make peace:

The First democratic Armenian Constitution (similar to today’s western ‎Constitution ) was written in Artsakh (of Karabakh) 1500 years a go !!!!‎

‎ Karabakh has the same right to be independent as Turk-Azerbaijani" has the right to have one ‎another state … If Karababakh “ is/were part of Azerbaijan” as wrrongly claimed by Baku, in this case ‎Karabakh has ever right to put claim on Baku too in case of new aggression against Karabakh

The racial motivated anti Armenian propaganda of officials at the state level in Baku , which ‎aim is to brainwash Azerbaijan youth, falsifying of history and mislead the world community ‎is doomed to flair!‎ http://news.am/eng/news/80303.html

The First Armenian Constitution was written in Artsakh (of Karabakh)
http://news.am/eng/news/80303.html

By the initiative of King Vachagan Barepasht (“the Pious”) of Karabakh (Artsakh) and Utik, a Constitution was adopted 1,500 years ago, in the early 500s, whose rewritten version, which was prepared in 1288, is still kept at Armenian capital Yerevan’s Matenadaran (Armenian ancient manuscript museum). At the initial phase, the draft Constitution was sent to different dwelling areas, where meetings and discussions were held, the people gave their consent, and subsequently the King convened a large national congress, and only after which the Constitution was adopted through a referendum. At the same time, the congress was chaired by a rank-and-file soldier. These methods emerged in Europe 800-1,000 years later.

The First Armenian Constitution is the most vivid example of the fact that, if the natural development of our (Armenian) statehood had not been interrupted by 600-700 years, perhaps we would have been the locomotive of those values which today are the foundations of western democracy.

‎make peace no war! Today, Karabakh is protecting the oil pipeline form Azerbaijani sabotage acts and ‎manipulations … beside this Karabakh should be made strong enough to be able to punish ‎criminal officials in Baku in the very first day , if the regime in Baku dears to start a new ‎aggression and try to destabilize the situation in the region- ‎

BenLondon

Kursato

This was taken to protect the people from Azeri shells. It will only be given back if the security of the people can be guaranteed.

Judging by the arms race that tin pot dictator Aliev is pursuing don't expect this anytime soon.

guest-iwiwajn

@ Karabakh is Armenia

Calm down dude, where do you live? check your media and you will easily discover hate against Azerbaijanis, Turks, and jealousy against Georgians. Armenia has the same problem with democracy and freedom of speech as Azerbaijan, even more, killing of members from opposition parties happen in Armenia not Azerbaijan. Is that your democracy?

Sona Shushaly

Even if Armenians shout at all corners that Karabakh is Armenia, it is not and will never be, in spite of the fact they occupied Azerbaijani lands with the help of the Russians. Armenia existed as agreat Aremnia in 4th century bc, and that was it. From physoclogical point of view Armenians are fanatics, that want to rewrite world history and return back to the oeriod of the great armenia. If they wanted seld identification they could seldf identify themselves in Armenian republic, but they just want to grab Azerbaijani lands. Caucasian Albanian church was never part of Armenian church, as Caucasian Albania was never part of Armenia. And in the ancient time Karabakh was Caucasian Albania. Listening to Armenians, one would think that everything in the world is of ancient armenian origin:)

rusotrece

znb050 my friend, the word is just a word..I don't want to argue with u about how karabakh/artsah is my or yo ancestral land. I wish everybody could get along and live in peace there. However what do u think if Russians would start saying that" everybody knows Vladivostok as Vladivostok, a Russian word, therefore it is ancestral Russian land". Is it a good example? Or, do we know what local native Americans called new york? Cause I could swear by it's name, it sure must b an Anglo Saxon land. And what great antiquity did this karabakh khanate originated from? A name is just a name, my friend. What does Baku mean in that ancient turcik dialect? What does moskva mean in Russian? I hope u could look past the names and recognize that the land belongs to people that live there. And that karabakh could b both Armenian and Azerbaijani and that there is no need to fight over it

znb050

If Karabakh is a historical Armenian land then why it's known everywhere by the turkic/azeri name Karabakh (Kara means black and bakh-garden)? Why name Arsakh (how armenians call Karabakh) is not more popular on the contrary? If it was always in the armenian posession before 1918 then why there was Karabakh khanate and not Arsakh khanate?
The word says everything for itself. Karabakh is historical Azerbaijani land in some places more occupied by Armenians. And there was not a need to start this whole conflict which harmed all of us.

Karabakh is Armenia

Hi everybody!

‎ This is Azerbaijani president who does insult Armenian people again and again! This are ‎‎Azerbaijani palace historians who are engaged in falsifying of history- Azerbaijani palace ‎‎historians are there, where Turkish palace historians did start there job in 1921 or 1933 - this ‎was the beginning of creating a new “clean” and glorious Turkish identity by doing as much ‎harm as possible to Armenian people !‎

‎1) The west and Russia are allowed to take the “Azerbaijani oil” as much as they want- but ‎leave Karabakh in foredoom. In a time as Karabakh was fighting for foredoom and ‎independence the same Azerbaijani republic was far a way of such ideas- freedom, peace and ‎a live without foreign rule is the first human right!‎

‎2) Western politicians could try to implement a “Swiss model” for Georgia where Armenian ‎population being forced to accept the „Georgian identity“.. There is still not too late for such a ‎solution, tomorrow it could be almost too late! ‎

‎3) Turkish has shown to Armenian people that so called “international security guarantees” ‎are not even paper worth written on it and the best which Europe, US and Russia did in 1915 ‎as Turkish did start its annihilation plan against Armenian people, was to document the ‎Armenian Genocide!!!! Therefore Turk Azerbaijani politicians in Baku are convinced that ‎they could use such “international guarantees” as toilet paper too and act the way did there ‎older brother - since the first attempt of genocide against Armenians in Karabakh was other ‎than a success for racial motivated politicians in Baku! … ! Today, it is ridicule, arrogance ‎‎,stupid and even insult to the memory of Armenians killed during Armenian genocide in front ‎of Western and world community, when some politicians form Brussels and else where, have ‎nothing better to do as to condom democratic elections in Karabakah or try to make ‎problems for the peaceful existence and development of Karbakah and do try to convince ‎Armenians in Karabakh of false “security guarantees” and so on, instead to recognize the ‎republic! ‎

Karabakh is Armenia

Tallinner

‎ No Thanks! In "Azerbaijan" there are many other folks in need of help ( who are fighting ‎against force turkification ). I would suggest youu to realize your "European ideas " e.g. "Swiss model “without making ‎Karabakh of just another Turkish sultanate! Karabakh is not for “experience” (guinea pig ) ‎like communist try to do so! ‎

‎ Since some - sitting in there warm offices somewhere in Europe are claiming Turkey is part ‎of “western civilization,” “democratic”, “modern” “ a ‎shunning model for this and that” your ‎‎"Swiss model" could be maybe a good idea to ‎implement in“ democratic” Turkey in order to ‎stop the ongoing Kurdish-Turkish war and put ‎an end to terror and killing of innocent ‎civilians!‎

Europeans at least once did promise reforms and security for West Armenia ( „East Turkey” ‎for 6 Armenian velijata or “Turkish Armenia!) around 1914 and even before that, the end ‎result of promised and agreed reforms was a Turkish lead genocide of Armenian people in the ‎front eyes of „European civilization“! ‎

Karabakh is Armenia

Karabakh has the same right to be independent and free to determinate there future as Kosovo ‎and south Sudan!‎

‎ In Armenia there is no anti Azerbaijani propaganda let alone on state level- this is the ‎difference between Armenia and Azerbaijan! - Azerbaijani has even a problem with ‎Armenians buried for more than 1000 years in there graves!‎

When a brain washed Azerbaijani post comments such as Armenia being built on Azerbaijani ‎land or Karabakhi Armenians were brought by Stalin to Karabakh, than i have no respect for ‎such a person and so on - co-existence of nations is a must but dialog is not a one way street! ‎Karabakh has no less right of self-determination and independent as Azerbaijani and other ‎nations living under the sun!!! - It seems for some oil and pipelines to be more expansive ‎and more important than blood of human beening and existence and security of Armenians ‎in Karabakh! ‎

Who ever wants “dialog” first of all should accept the right of Karbakhi living in there ‎thousand year home land and better to stop falsifying of history and declaring Armenia ‎culture heritage as “Azerbaijani” or “Turkish” . ‎

rusotrece

hans1980. i coudn't agree more with you, brother. hamshenis that i had met are from krasnodar and abkhazia region. they are exclusively christian and are cannot be distinguished from other armenians of the region. other hamshenis, the ones that were send to uzbekistan with meskheti turks (ajarian ones, closer to trabzond) are almost exclusively muslim. i know that they were forced to accept islam. that is not the point though. i beleive whatever their religious background is at this time, armenians should embrace them just as well. i beleive that if you dig deep into turks and kurds 20-30 % of them are of armenian ancestry as well. that will put armenians above the fray. maybe then turks themselves start questioning their dogma of "turks can only be sunni muslim" and turn more tolerant. i had witnessed this transformation in educated turks myself. i want armenia to develop healthy relations with all of her neighbors, including azerbaijan. only then that poor nation will prosper

Hans1980

^
oops didn't mean to use caps in the previous.

@rusotrece, I agree with you, I actually believe he is not even Armenian. Unfortunately Azeris do these kinds of things in order for people to think Armenians are angry fascists, even go around pretending to be Nazi's. It's pretty obvious from his comments he pretends as if Armenians ever claim the creation of a Turkish Alphabet which is preposterous, since there is no (living) Turkish alphabet and certainly we Armenians never claimed it.

But I wanted to comment on another issue you mention Hamshentsi Armenians who are Muslims in Turkey. I happen to be of Hamshentsi ancestry and I met quit a few brothers and sisters from Turkey. So I know from first hand that they have been forced to convert to Islam. And for decades they have been lied to about their true identity. The Hamshens of Turkey did not know they are of Armenian origin in fact Turkey doesn't recognize them as such, they have been told they are a separate ethnic group closely related to the Laz people of Georgia. For many years Kurds have suffered a similar faith where they have been told to be the "Mountain Turks" not Kurds. There are a lot of subjects that cannot be talked about in Turkey. So the reason why Hamshentsi of Turkey are Muslim was not really a matter of choice, but a matter of life and death, peace or discrimination and prosecution.

But surely the user "Karabakh is Armenia" is an Azeri provocateur. Mockingly depicting Azeri prejudice about Armenians.

LastKingofScotland

This conflict is totally forgotten in the Western world because they do not have economical interests in this region anymore. The instability of the region fends off all possible investors.

Hans1980

@iwiwajn

and what about the massacres committed by Azris on Armenian citizens, some even prior to the conflict. To name a few : Shushi massacre, Maraghar Massacre, Kirovbad pogrom, Sumgait massacre, Baku pogrom... etc... etc..

Karabakh was over 90% Armenian in population, it is sad that some are allowed to have their Independence but the Christian Armenians have to bow to Muslim oil sheikhs without the ability to decide their own destiny just because Azerbaijan is selling oil to the west. I say no BLOOD FOR OIL!! Let the people of Karabakh be free to decide their own faith according to their own Christian traditions. But unfortunately there is still no justice. Very sad!

LET THE PEOPLE OF KARABAKH BE FREE TO DECIDE THEIR OWN FAITH ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS!

rusotrece

karabakh is armenia. buddy u really need to chill. i am an armenian too, but i was born in baku and i don't think you are in a very balanced position. you yell and scream about azeri propaganda, but it seems like armenian propaganda got the best of you as well. yelling "shut up" when no one is even talking to u seems a lil weird at best. now, i think, that artsah\karabah and nahijevan, as well as whole east of turkey is an ancestral armenian land. however u have to look at the realities as well. azeris, have a right to claim alabanian, persian and a turkic ancestry at the same time. why not? bulgarians, for instance, have a name of an ancient turkic tribe, but speak a slavic language. hamshenis in trabzond are ethnic armenians but are sunni. expand your horizons a bit. and tune down your rhetoric. try to communicate with people. it is much more productive

About Eastern approaches

Eastern approaches deals with the economic, political, security and cultural aspects of the eastern half of the European continent. It incorporates the long-running "Europe.view" weekly column. The blog is named after the wartime memoirs of the British soldier Sir Fitzroy Maclean.

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