British politics
Britain and the EU
British Eurosceptics demand the right to prescribe euthanasia for the euro zone
Dec 4th 2011, 21:53 by Bagehot
THE weekend papers are full of angry quotes from British Conservatives, appalled by the idea that British voters might be denied a referendum on a new European Union treaty that imposes sweeping new restrictions on the taxation, spending and borrowing of the 17 countries that use the single currency.
Conservative MPs and activists correctly sense that the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition does not want a referendum on the new EU treaty which is being actively sought by Germany, and grudgingly endorsed by France (now that it is clear that the price for German aquiescence to some form of debt mutualisation or massive intervention by the European Central Bank is a binding agreement on automatic sanctions designed to stop euro-zone members from ever again running up unsustainable debts).
Under the terms of the European Union Act 2011, Britain must hold a referendum on new EU treaties which see powers passed from Westminster to Brussels. But as Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat deputy prime minister pointed out on the BBC this morning, that does not mean that a referendum would be triggered by shifts of sovereignty involving only the 17 euro zone members. As Mr Clegg told Andrew Marr of the BBC:
Let me be very clear. The test, which we've legislated on, is if we, the United Kingdom, give up more sovereignty in a big way to the European Union
That bit about "in a big way" raises alarm bells among British Eurosceptics, who think the EU Act falls way short of a "referendum lock". Actually, the EU Act is a pretty tightly-worded referendum lock, as I have written before.
But the point of dispute here is actually a different one. The contention of Eurosceptics is that such a leap towards fiscal union inside the euro zone would marginalise countries such as Britain which were not involved. As it happens, I think that is right.
British Eurosceptics further argue that even if France, Germany and the rest of the euro zone think that deep integration is the only plan that may save them in the short term (not least because it may well be Germany's price for agreeing to the use of the ECB to stem worldwide market panic about the break-up of the single currency), there is no guarantee that such integration will save the euro in the long term. For what it is worth, part of me fears this might turn out to be right, too (though I take the short term much more seriously than many Eurosceptics, who strike me as irresponsibly casual about the consequences of a disorderly break-up of the single currency).
So for all these reasons, they would like a referendum on a new euro-zone treaty.
Here is a prominent Eurosceptic member of the 2010 Tory intake to the House of Commons, Chris Heaton-Harris, arguing in the Sunday Telegraph for Britain to seek an all-purpose opt-out from EU laws that the British Parliament does not like, by wielding the threat of a veto over the new arrangements:
Whilst we can not be seen to be getting in the way of those countries that choose to allow themselves to be absorbed by fiscal and political union, we should not miss the opportunity to restructure our relationship with the Eurozone.Thus we should state that we are willing to do all we can to help get the new Treaty changes enacted in exchange for a new provision, a new mechanism that allows those countries in the EU but not in the Eurozone, following a successful domestic Parliamentary vote, to allow itself to withdraw from existing EU laws that it believed damaged an important national interest.
Following the successful passing of the European Union Act earlier this year, any EU Treaty change involving a significant shift of power from the UK now has to be put to a referendum here in the UK.
No one can deny the fundamental significance to the UK of treaty changes that allow for fiscal and political union for core European countries and the Government would be under considerable pressure should it choose not to allow a referendum on this emerging new relationship with the Eurozone.
Asking the British people if they would allow the Eurozone to integrate further in exchange for a potentially looser relationship with it would not be the in-out referendum that many people want, but it would be, at last, a step down the road to a new and better relationship with our neighbours
Here is Iain Duncan Smith, the Conservative work and pensions secretary and perhaps the most Eurosceptic member of the cabinet, speaking to Sky News (transcript via ConservativeHome):
The Prime Minister has always said if there is major treaty change — it is now legislated for — that we would have a referendum and he has never shied away from that. We’re the first government ever to have legislated for referendums on treaties, in other words the British public will have a say, will have a right to have a say
And here is Tim Montgomerie, the boss of ConservativeHome, as ever crisply summing up the consensus view of the Tory right:
The argument that Cameron and Clegg will deploy against a referendum is that we shouldn't put the UK's desire for repatriation in the way of a resolution of the €uro crisis. Resolving the €uro crisis, they will say, is Britain's number one economic priority. But a large majority of Tory members and Boris Johnson do not see preserving the €urozone as in Britain's medium term or long-term interests
Mr Montgomerie, Mr Hannan, Mr Heaton-Harris, Mr Duncan Smith, Mr Redwood, Mr Cash, Mr Carswell and all the other Tory Eurosceptics being quoted this weekend have the perfect right to want a referendum on a new treaty. They are also quite within their rights to argue that preserving the euro is not in Britain's national interests.
But given that the governments of Germany, France and the other members of the euro zone are determined to try to save the euro, I have a single, simple question for British Eurosceptics.
Suppose we do end up facing a treaty setting out new rules for the euro zone, and suppose that Britain did hold a referendum. What, exactly, do they think the others would do if Britain voted no?
In this blog, our Bagehot columnist surveys the politics of Britain, British life and Britain's place in the world. The column and blog are named after Walter Bagehot, an English journalist who was the editor of The Economist from 1861 to 1877
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cheezus! I cannot believe the number "they" have done - and are STILL doing on the British people - ESPECIALLY England!
Why do you think there's no referendum or that Cameron was recently told to shut up and the German finance minister recently told that Goldman Shits lackey Timothy Geithner and Obama to ... mind their own business! Or why Dave came whimpering back with his "bulldog" tail between his legs! Oh, wait, they don't have any "tail". I hope that's all that's missing!
Maybe you squealing "little englanders" should ALSO ask your lying, hypocritical politicians IS ANY OF YOUR "TAX PAYERS" MONEY actually going to the Greeks, Italian and Irish OR, is it in fact virtually ALL going to the parasitic banks and hyenas in the so-called "markets" and Wall st along with the parasites of the "city" to fill the great big black holes up, as they just can't keep printing dollars and pounds or hand out much more so-called "QE".
THEY HAVE ALREADY "SECRETLY" GIVEN AROUND 17 TRILLION TO THE BANKS because THEY ARE STILL HIDING ASTRONOMICAL AMOUNTS OF CRIMINALLY INSANE PONZI SCAMS, CDS and HYPER TOXIC DERIVATIVES/EQUITY LIABILITIES which are about to blow up in their faces - and yet for most of the scum it is BONUSES AS USUAL!
So go on, ASK THEM
Time to get real folks. For starters, we ALL have been screwed! The Greek "total debt" to GDP was "cooked" to be worse than Ireland's, with the collusion of the treacherous little shit of a prime minister we call 'amerikanaki', to make Greece the "weakest link" by which to "attack" the Euro at the time when the Chinese - and others - were starting to "diversify" from their mountain of rotting dollar liabilities into Euro assets AND CALLING FOR A NEW WORLD RESERVE CURRENCY! What a funny coincidence, hey!
Apologies, should have sent this...
I think it was a French politician that said at the beginning of the "crisis" that "We (the EU) will one day thank the Greeks because they will force us to finally make a stand! Then the US/UK and their precious "markets" will have to deal with some very harsh reality.
Well, guess what? Despite the endless "predictions" of the EU/Euro doom, there are REAL Europeans who are slowly (on purpose to make the "markets" sweat) but surely starting to get their act together by trying to ring fence the Euro debt from the parasites and yet at the same time try to minimize a global melt down by standing up the parasites demands to ESSENTIALLY print endless Euros to save the US and UK banksters hides - because the useless muppets Timothy and Mervyn can't just keep printing more dollars or pounds - or do much more so-called QE!
Besides, these aren't "predictions", they are CONFESSIONS! The "Greek Tragedy" was little more than a devious, desperate attempt to "destroy" the Euro, primarily set up by Goldman Shits, aided by our treacherous little scum bag with delusions of adequacy, Papapandreou, (who btw we call "amerikanaki") his brothers and gang of thieves, in a "Titanic debt" and "spreads" scam allowing the whores of Wall st. to trigger the "Greek crisis" and using it as the "weakest link" to attack the Euro in the hope of stopping the Chinese - and others - dumping the rotting dollar!
And it nearly worked! As until now, the US/UK "banks" and "global markets" were supposedly "masters of the universe" and the genuine believers of EU ideals, struggled to cope with all the relentless sabotaging and choruses of doom mongers.
Truth is, there has always been a "civil war" going on in Europe since WWII between the REAL Europeans who felt the last 2 wars and 500 years were enough madness and those who did well from the "Marshal Plan" and sucked up to the Americans - and worst of all the anglo-scotish "establishment" mafia - ESPECIALLY since the 70s when the Chicago "boys" convinced them to go down the deregulated "atlantic" road - sealing the deal with the ERM fiasco and "big bang".
But ironically, their "Greek tragedy" ploy is backfiring and for starters we have now got rid of our treacherous little shit - and so have the Italians! It's not "democratic" or ideal - BUT NEITHER IS BAILING OUT THE BANKS AND PARASITIC "MARKETS" - or Bliar handing over to Broon or the big "W" neo-cons screwing the Florida results! We ALL have to pay for our "sins".
And now it is the people of the UK - especially England - that are REALLY being screwed by the "protectors" of their so-called "sovereignty" while at the same time THEY ARE "BAILING OUT" THE CRIMINALLY INSANE BANKSTERS AND "city" HYENAS. It is the very same "protectors" that have been "privatising" and SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND - and DOLLAR, RUPEE, YUAN, YEN to any "johnny foreigner" who'll line their pockets!
WAKE UP ENGLAND!
In Britain, where the latest figures available are FOR THE THREE MONTHS TO JUNE 2010, the gross amount owed to foreigners was FOUR TIMES GDP 400%!!!!. The biggest chunk of this—more than three-fifths—consisted of the external debt of British banks according to figures from the IMF and the World Bank.
Portugal, the latest country in the euro area to request a bail-out, has outstanding debts to foreigners that are over twice its national income. (at least 213% GDP)
Yet in the "tragic" case of Greece, (WHICH IS LESS THAN 2% OF EU GDP with TOTAL debt of 130 to 160% GDP - depending on the "crisis" and doom mongers) but the biggest fraction - just under half - was "government" debt - and most of that is from corrupt infrastructure and arms deals from the very same "lenders" who now want to give us lessons in "fiscal ethics".
There is the very real possibility of the Europeans getting their house in order - with or without the "UK" - but preferably WITH to avoid the worst and maybe even take on the banksters - the MF GLOBAL fiasco may well be a sign of things to come - especially if the BRICS play their cards right and the few sane voices in America are heard.
The debt clock is ticking and time is running out - WE NOW HAVE TO CHOOSE SIDES. Because if we don't all get our act together real soon and put the parasites in their place and/or jail, the next "crash" will make 2008 will look like a picnic.
cheezus! I cannot believe the number "they" have done - and are STILL doing on the British people - ESPECIALLY England!
Why do you think there's no referendum or that Cameron was recently told to shut up and the German finance minister recently told that Goldman Shits lackey Timothy Geithner and Obama to ... mind their own business! Or why Dave came whimpering back with his "bulldog" tail between his legs! Oh, wait, they don't have any "tail". I hope that's all that's missing!
Maybe you squealing "little englanders" should ALSO ask your lying, hypocritical politicians IS ANY OF YOUR "TAX PAYERS" MONEY actually going to the Greeks, Italian and Irish OR, is it in fact virtually ALL going to the parasitic banks and hyenas in the so-called "markets" and Wall st along with the parasites of the "city" to fill the great big black holes up, as they just can't keep printing dollars and pounds or hand out much more so-called "QE".
THEY HAVE ALREADY "SECRETLY" GIVEN AROUND 17 TRILLION TO THE BANKS because THEY ARE STILL HIDING ASTRONOMICAL AMOUNTS OF CRIMINALLY INSANE PONZI SCAMS, CDS and HYPER TOXIC DERIVATIVES/EQUITY LIABILITIES which are about to blow up in their faces - and yet for most of the scum it is BONUSES AS USUAL!
So go on, ASK THEM
Time to get real folks. For starters, we ALL have been screwed! The Greek "total debt" to GDP was "cooked" to be worse than Ireland's, with the collusion of the treacherous little shit of a prime minister we call 'amerikanaki', to make Greece the "weakest link" by which to "attack" the Euro at the time when the Chinese - and others - were starting to "diversify" from their mountain of rotting dollar liabilities into Euro assets AND CALLING FOR A NEW WORLD RESERVE CURRENCY! What a funny coincidence, hey!
"Suppose we do end up facing a treaty setting out new rules for the euro zone, and suppose that Britain did hold a referendum. What, exactly, do they think the others would do if Britain voted no?"
Surely in the spirit of European unity they would have to go along with the wishes of the 2nd largest net contributor? No-oh dear, i was always told that a place at the "top table" guaranteed that we would be able to influence events? Still no? I'm shocked!
Seriously, just give us what we want, friendship and trade, and stop trying to trun our country for us, that is what the people of the UK want. if the others want to get married, have children etc in ever closer union then good luck to them, so long as it does not harm us.
The only people who will be upset are at the FCO and UKREP.
"British Eurosceptics demand the right to prescribe euthanasia for the euro zone "
Not at all. "Thou shalt not kill, but needst not strive, officiously, to keep alive"! It's not the British, eurosceptic or otherwise, who want a treaty change. They're quite happy for the current arrangements to continue. But if there are changes, then everybody has to agree. That's the rule. Aren't we always being told that the British have to obey the rules even if they don't like them? Why isn't the same true for everybody else as well?
This article also illustrates two other persistent themes from europhiles (British and continental).
(1) If something is a success, then it's another example of the glory and wonder that is European Unification. If it doesn't, it's British sabotage.
(2) It's only ever the British who are expected to be noble and selfless. Everybody else always goes into negotiations with national interests in mind, and this is fine and taken for granted. But if the British do the same, the result is abuse and vilification.
I think people forget this whole project was to create a peaceful and united Europe in a way the world really has not seen before. You could use the age old arguement of the Zollverin, but unless the EU capitulates its neighbouring rival I do not see this happening. I think the Tory Right has a fundamental issue in that its more like Chamberlain than Churchil. What happened to the the One Nation Tories? Also, may I remind the Tories they have produced more for the EU on behalf of the UK than anyone else such as Heath in joining and Thatcher in creating the SEA.
I am honestly annoyed that my fellow Britons are so busy thinking we are better off on our own than with fellow Europeans who have more of the same wants and needs than our American cousins. Not to speak ill of the US of course, but we have more in common with the Germans and the French than Americans other than possibly food. Even then, not really. I am so tired of daily papers running wild and screaming, if we left the EU the Daily Express would go bust, and that would be the only good of it.
Granted that setting up a 17 country common currency zone was a dumb idea, the thing to do now is to try to fix the problem which in this case means bringing about fiscal integration of some sort.
Given that Euroland is Britain's biggest trading partner you might think that the UK would be anxiously looking for ways to make a constructive contribution to resolving Europe's problems. Instead all that is heard from the UK is endless laments about UK victimhood at the hands of Brussels and a determination to do the maximum to disrupt the process of coming to any sort of consensus.
There seems to be some sort of fantasy amongst Euro-sceptics that the rest of the world is lined up 10 deep to buy British products (of which there aren't any except HP sauce and The Economist) and deal with England's bankrupt banks.
Sorry guys: not so. You should seek to belong to any club that you have you as a member. Everyone wants to know you but no one wants you in their house. You ought to be grateful if Europe is willing to put up with your endless bellyaching.
@Dave: "A referendum is the singlemost stupid thing ever invented. People rarely vote rationally, neh-sayers often show up more and there will always be politicians who will try to profit from it with bad arguments against something."
If the population has no say in its governance why should it pay for it in taxes? Why should it obey its regulations for that matter? My rule of thumb is that if their "irrational" taxes are good enough then so are their "irrational" opinions.
I might add that the world is not awestruck by how well the euro has been constructed nor by how well the EU institutions have responded to this crisis. Likewise nobody is rushing to emulate the CAP, the Fisheries policy or any other catastrophic product of our new euro oligarchy. Frankly as a model of governance it is difficult to see how much worse off we would all be if we had handed the controls to a clutch of lobotomised chimpanzees.
Government by unaccountable elite always has this outcome. They are a useless ruling class precisely because they are an unaccountable ruling class....
"Suppose we do end up facing a treaty setting out new rules for the euro zone, and suppose that Britain did hold a referendum. What, exactly, do they think the others would do if Britain voted no?"
Nobody will care. UK is now a marginal factor in Europe and World.
UK will lose because the City will not have freedom to operate Pan Europe. Supply of cheap East European labour will end.
Complaint is the true common currency.
@Stephen Morris
"Why then are the European politicians so ruthlessly determined to deny their subject peoples a referendum on the matter???"
That's simple enough: Last time the mainland European politicians caved in to popular sentiment, it resulted in something called World War II.
"@Stephen Morris
"Why then are the European politicians so ruthlessly determined to deny their subject peoples a referendum on the matter???"
That's simple enough: Last time the mainland European politicians caved in to popular sentiment, it resulted in something called World War II."
Stop lying. Seriously, why do you Little Europeans always trot out this sort of nonsense?
Far from the €Uro-failure holding a gun to the UK, the markets are holding a gun to the €Uro-failures:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16042346
It has been the markets so far that have been the quickest to draw, so the question should be: What will the markets do if the UK says no?
Have fast events can move on, and the ground shift. I would think that the answer to the question is that the markets will protect the City, as that is where the biggest market is and where many have their money.
The basic problem as far as I can see it is that Euroscepticism appears to have become an article of faith not suceptible to argument or evidence. It is nonsense on stilts to think that the UK has the power to stop those of our European colleagues who wish to estabish a new arrangement among themselves from doing so, whether we think it is a good idea or not. Nor even if we did have the power would we have the right to do so. It is for the citizens of those countries to decide whether or not they wish to accept such changes - that's what national sovereignty means. And it is bad politics and poor ethics to argue that when your neighbour's house is burning the appropriate response is to prevent him from putting it out until he has paid you off. I think that's what used to be called making someone an offer they can't refuse. I find it profoundly depressing as a British citizen that so many of my parliamentary representatives appear to combine the ethics of the Mafia with the common sense of Louis XVI. We are not an island entire of ourselves - nor were we ever - and it is both foolish and dangerous to shut our eyes to that reality. The world isn't fair and you can't always have what you want. Personally I would like a rather looser and less dirigiste European Union. But blackmail isn't the way to get it. Whether looked at as a realist, an idealist or an old-fashioned British pragmatist in foreign policy, the Eurosceptic response to the Euro crisis makes no sense to me. Fortunately so far the Government appears to be able to follow the logic chain and resist the Violet Elizabeth Bott tendency on the right wing.
"it is bad politics and poor ethics to argue that when your neighbour's house is burning the appropriate response is to prevent him from putting it out until he has paid you off."
That depends. If your neighbour is a bully who's been extorting money out of you for years, and moreover only has a fire because of his own stupid behaviour which you actually warned him about, you might well be less than completely sympathetic.
You might indeed, quite reasonably, be less than completely sympathetic (although given the state of our national finances - public, corporate and personal - I would hesitate to throw too many rocks on this one). But granting your premise for the sake of argument, someone else's misbehaviour does not provide an ethical justification for us to return the compliment in kind. Nor does it necessarily mean that it makes political sense to do so in the circumstances currently prevailing. Though I grant you, the latter is a point of judgment on which it is possible for reasonable people reasonably to differ. And one of the things that most bothers me about much of this debate in the UK at present is the way in which accusations of malign motivations are far too freely thrown around. In which context I regret the somewhat intemperate nature of some of my earlier comments. Just because I think the Eurosceptic right sorely mistaken on this one does not give me the right to lob insults, for which I apologise.
cheezus! I cannot believe the number "they" have done - and are STILL doing on the British people - ESPECIALLY England!
Ordinary Americans and Brits are now hurting more than Europeans as the TRUE TOTAL GOVT DEBT, BAILOUTS, "QE" LIABILITIES AND PUBLIC/PRIVATE DEBT make the EU's look like petty cash - AND THAT'S NOT INCLUDING THE HUNDREDS OF TRILLIONS OF HYPER TOXIC DERIVATIVES, CDS AND CRIMINALLY INSANE PONZY SCAMS about to blow up in their faces!
see page 131
http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf
All your "leaders" have got you chasing red herrings - especially in England - so you don't notice you are REALLY being screwed by the "protectors" of your so-called "sovereignty" while at the same time they were "privatizing" and SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND! - and DOLLAR, EURO, RUPEE, YUAN, YEN etc etc, to any "johnny foreigner" who'd line their pockets or offer them directorships at the banks or the likes of "The Carlyle group!"
Sadly, too many sheeple and the pathetic, so-called "little englanders" have been bamboozled and have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA just how much their "leaders" have been deluding them with the so-called "united" kingdom fairy tale while they fleece them blind!
This predominantly anglosaxon-scottish minority with their bastardised "ruling class" and political lackeys, are essentially still the same "establishment" 1% mafia, along with their Norman allies and/or rivals, that are still squabbling over how to preside and preserve their power base and control over the serfs of the so-called "union" .
And now they've got you "believing" that it's all the EU's fault. (though judging by some of the childish tantrums and rants, most of you aren't sure, are you?) Well look at WHO ACTUALLY SOLD OFF or sucked dry - oops! sorry! "privatized" all your public assets and has REALLY ripped you off over the ages!
Especially since the times of the "East India co." and more recently selling out to the so-called "special relationship" since the war and sealing the deal in the late seventies with the "chicago gang" and parasitic banksters of Wall st with the deregulated "big bang" and criminally insane ponzy scams of the "city" - thanks to that ol' muppet of a witch and all the treacherous lackeys since - not least the "socialists" Bliar and Broon!
Well, despite what those fine upstanding "patriots" Rippoff Murdoch and Conman Black - along with all the other presstitute hacks AND the beeb - try to sell you, ironically the British ARE THE MOST European country in Europe. Take a good, HONEST look and see where you ALL came from - except of course all your more recent colonial imports and the cheap, even slave labour your lying, hypocritical "leaders" let in since the 80s to make the 1% mafia EVEN RICHER! Teh, same things never change...
Instead of England celebrating it's European heritage and taking it's RIGHTFUL and leading role in the EU, YOU HAVE BEEN SOLD DOWN THE RIVER as the 51st muppet state of america drifting off the shores of Europe into a no man's land in the mid Atlantic!
If you REALLY care about your country and don't want to end up in a BIGGER subprime big mac debt ridden nightmare, it's time TO MAKE THE FUTURE !!!YOUR!!! BUSINESS - WAKE UP ENGLAND!
If Britian voted no, then the 17 would have to find a way that did not change the current treaties, one that would only have effects on the 17.
The 'fairest' way to solve this would be for the 17 to count as 1, when it come to having a voice in the European Council. If the EUrophiles really want ever closer union, then they should start at representation. 11 is a much easier number to work with anyway... 1 €uro federation, 10 free currency individual democracies, 1 common market.
@ Vive_Chimie
'Some' non-EZ countries are doing better than EZ countries. That's not very generous of you. You could at least say that it is the MAJORITY of the remaining ten. Throw in Iceland, Norway and Switzerland for good measure and it turns into a rout.
'Divided loyalties'? Not at all. Have you not noticed the turn against the € in France? I am now in the majority. Ha, ha!
Bonne chance avec ton union fiscale!
@ 03715
"So Britain wants to set the rules",
No, Britain has never claimed to 'want to set the rules'.
"and yet not be bound by them?"
No, France and Germany have broken EU rules far more than other countries. These two are in a league of their own and have never
considered themselves "bound by them".
"It isn't fair".
No, it isn't fair. The only thing you've got right.
"Just get out and be done with it".
Excellent plotical analysis.
whyat would the Germans and french do if UK voted no? This is a sober and sensible question. But it is a bit unsettling that it has to be asked at all. Does that mean that so many UK politicians have failed to notice the actual stature and power status of the UK?
"Alee 66: "I have sense of tragedy with Prof. Morris posts on this subject: he lives in a representative democracy, a federal state with multiple levels of government/legislature (county, state, US) but he's *constantly* arguing that others (Europeans in this case) should not have one themselves."
I know...these unsophisticated Americans with all that "government of the people, by the people and for the people" guff. When are they going to learn that for European sophisticates the future lies in a new Versailles and a government of courtiers, by courtiers, for courtiers.......Oh wait!
So Britain wants to set the rules, and yet not be bound by them?
It doesn't seem fair.
Just get out and be done with it.
@ Vive_Chimie
I wouldn't be so sure about that. If the UK left the EU, it might seem like a good idea which others could well follow, since you will have noticed that non EZ members of the EU are doing better economically than those with the common currency.
And since you live in France, tell us about Le Guen's comments about Daladier/Munich or Montebourg's on Sarko playing second fiddle to Angela. A fiscal union with Germany? No way the French will accept that.
You're on the wrong band-waggon. Better get on the one that's going in the right direction.
Dear Junior,
If you write that SOME non-EZ members of the EU are doing better economically than SOME EZ members, then I can agree with you. If you omit the SOMES, then you'll have to specify carefully the time-period you choose.
But I think that both of us know quite well that correlation isn't proof of causation, as the climate-sceptics say, and if it's sauce for the goose then it's no doubt sauce for the gander as well. I could add that despite Mr Clinton's observations, the economy really isn't everything. Politics counts as well and I don't see a politically-united Europe without a strong financial union.
If you are asking me to comment on the "European solidarity" recently displayed by some relatively highly-placed members of the PS here in France, then I think that I'll have to reply "touché".
I personally am not at all bothered by the idea of a fiscal union, in fact I think that it's a good idea (though I don't see what the ECJ should have to do with it). Maybe the cross-section of the population that I meet is not representative of the whole, but my friends don't seem to regard the idea of a real union as a disaster.
Are your loyalties not strained at present? You don't seem to be one of the stronger supporters of the EZ (note to non-British readers, an example of British understatement).
Funny how whatever happens either for better or for worse eurosceptics always seem to prescribe the Queen of Hearts' medicine: "Off with its head!". And they want to be taken seriously??? Come on...